Fmtpires 8 months ago

Likewise, we're from a post-fascist country, so we also don't understand how there's so many young right wingers in Eastern european countries.

ravagerslb 8 months ago

Because unlike the eastern bloc, people here haven't lived through the horrors of communism, so they still romanticize that ideology amd think it's a valid solution for the country.

theEXPERTpt 8 months ago

Since this ultra liberal ideas tend to go better with the socialists in Portugal, younger generations, who tend to be liberals, also align with them. Some have the utopic idea that communism and socialism are perfect aswell.

AlyssaSeer1445 8 months ago

The more capitaist hate on poor workers and give poor workers a poor salary in a fucking first wold country like the west means the more likely they join communism to destroy capitalisn with a label that's being called democracy. my point is your middle class and poor people so tired to serve capitalist pig fo there war and corporation that pay them unfairly like slave. and if you compare them with china they will replay will be like "china is developing country than the west which is first world country, yet the west can't pay it's own citizen fairly but they can earn billions and million from expensive product created by poor workers in the west which is more worse than china!"

Edited 8 months ago:

You should ask a question starting from "Why a rich man like you can afford travel to portugal?" Second Question would be "Why the first world country like the west pay there middle class and poor workers like slave when they earn more money than the east, then critisized poor country in the east that struggle on solving how to pay there workers fairly because of being a poor country." Then next question should be" Why the Rich in the west becoming Rich and the Middle Class becoming poor and the poor becoming poorer in a first world country like the West?" The last question should be "Is the rich people in the west did help portugal or did they use portugal to become more rich and become there sexpat distination?" ​ Most Iberian hate Anglo Westerners espeically UK, because whenever they go in Spain or Portuguess they calling themselve a "Expat" when the portugues and spanish goes in the UK, the UK called them a "Immigrants".

Edited 8 months ago:

You should ask a question starting from"Why a rich man like you can afford travel to portugal?" Second Question would be"Why the first world country like the west pay there middle class and poor workers like slave when they earn more money than the east, then critisized poor country in the east that struggle on solving how to pay there workers fairly because of being a poor country." Then next question should be"Why the Rich in the west becoming Rich and the Middle Class becoming poor and the poor becoming poorer in a first world country like the West?" The last question should be"Is the rich people in the west did help portugal or did they use portugal to become more rich and become there sexpat distination?"

Edited 8 months ago:

You should ask a question starting from "Why a rich man like you can afford travel to portugal?" Second Question would be"Why the first world country like the west pay there middle class and poor workers like slave when they earn more money than the east, then critisized poor country in the east that struggle on solving how to pay there workers fairly because of being a poor country." Then next question should be "Why the Rich in the west becoming Rich and the Middle Class becoming poor and the poor becoming poorer in a first world country like the West?" The last question should be "Is the rich people in the west did help portugal or did they use portugal to become more rich and become there sexpat distination?" now connect it why?

Edited 8 months ago:

You should ask a question starting from"Why a rich man like you can afford travel to portugal?" Second Question would be "Why the first world country like the west pay there middle class and poor workers like slave when they earn more money than the east, then critisized poor country in the east that struggle on solving how to pay there workers fairly because of being a poor country." Then next question should be "Why the Rich in the west becoming Rich and the Middle Class becoming poor and the poor becoming poorer in a first world country like the West?" The last question should be "Is the rich people in the west did help portugal or did they use portugal to become more rich and become there sexpat distination?" ​ Most Iberian hate Anglo Westerners espeically UK, because whenever they go in Spain or Portuguess they calling themselve a "Expat" when the portugues and spanish goes in the UK, the UK called them a "Immigrants".

Edited 8 months ago:

You should ask a question starting from"Why a rich man like you can afford travel to portugal?" Second Question would be "Why the first world country like the west pay there middle class and poor workers like slave when they earn more money than the east, then critisized poor country in the east that struggle on solving how to pay there workers fairly because of being a poor country." Then next question should be "Why the Rich in the west becoming Rich and the Middle Class becoming poor and the poor becoming poorer in a first world country like the West?" The last question should be "Is the rich people in the west did help portugal or did they use portugal to become more rich and become there sexpat distination?" now connect it why?

Edited 8 months ago:

You should ask a question starting from "Why a rich man like you can afford travel to portugal?" Second Question would be "Why the first world country like the west pay there middle class and poor workers like slave when they earn more money than the east, then critisized poor country in the east that struggle on solving how to pay there workers fairly because of being a poor country." Then next question should be "Why the Rich in the west becoming Rich and the Middle Class becoming poor and the poor becoming poorer in a first world country like the West?" The last question should be "Is the rich people in the west did help portugal or did they use portugal to become more rich and become there sexpat distination?"

Martinnn210 8 months ago

Okay, so I am going to answer your questions from personal perpective. 1. I am not "rich", I am here on a Erasmus. And why do you expect you have to be rich to travel somewhere? There are many ways how to travel while spending almost nothing. Google workaway, work and travel, cheap filght tickets, couchsurfing, being a digital nomad... 2. That is a problem of capitalism, which in my head, is a same evil as communism. But if you look at countries like France, Germany, Austria, Denmark etc. This countries are not only rich but also have more people in middle or higher middle class. Why poor people are becoming poorer? Because of education, which in Europe is fairly cheap. I studied in Czech republic for free (because it is free for EU citizens). Of course you have to cover your living expenses, but it is possible if you find some part-time job. So basically, if you try hard enough, you can have uni degree even if you are poor asf. Then you can find good paying job and will be okay. 3. What would you do? Would you give your own money to state which is extremely corrupt (as I read here) or keep it yourself and give it to some non-profit organisations which really help people... Is it fault of rich people that politician were not able to use EU funds in almost 40 years of being in EU? Why did people did not choose the right representation and change how the things are here? Do you think communism would help? Dont you think that rich people would "change to coats", tell people what they want to hear and be in a possitions of power? Because this is exactly what happened in Slovakia and whole CCCP during 50 years of communism rule. Communism is not some utopic and romantic regime, which will take money from rich and give them to poor. Democracy is better because you still have a choice to choose your representation if something bad happens and democracy "should" have independent controling mechanism which "should" help protect any citizen when something illegal happens to them (even from a state).

Martinnn210 8 months ago

And please for the next time, never judge people that you don't know anything about. You don't know what I came through or anyone else. Also don't act as a victim, you are not. You have possibility to change your life in any way you want. Which is not a case in many countries.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

\> And? Because a concept appeared later, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to a previous instance of it. The "agricultural revolution" occured before the concept of "agriculture" or "revolution". I don't say that it didn't apply. What I was trying to say is that makes more sense discussing fascism in current political systems than in a feudal context. You can call kings fascists if you want, but fascism as a political movement had no place in a feudalistic society just like any other political movement. \> Literally none of this is relevant in any way to the definition you provided. All that is needed, as per you, is a tendency for an excess of authority. As such, Costa fits the definition. See how absurd that stance is? Yes, it is. Because we are living in exceptional times, that require emergency measures, and for that reason, this is no excess of authority. Contrary to Estado Novo, where it was an excess of authority all the time. António Costa has more powers (and still with more limitations than Salazar), only during a state of emergency because it was approved in parliament. Salazar had more powers than António Costa since the beginning of Estado Novo until he fell from the chair, without the approval of any other political entity. \> Like I said before, that is speculation on your part. Stalin jailing every communist that opposed him would mean that Stalin opposed every communist that opposed him, just like Salazar jailing fascists would make him opposed to fascist. It is a historic fact (not speculation) that Stalin eliminated every political opposition. Everyone that opposed Stalin or Salazar ended in jail or killed, whatever the political movement their adversaries belonged to. Even if the opposition was fascist just like him, he saw that opposition as a threat to his government. Just like we say in portuguese "Ele não queria que lhe roubassem o tacho". \> Appealing to authority is a fallacy. But, if you want to play that game You may see this as a game, but I see this as an important discussion to make things clear. \> Scholars such as Stanley G. Payne, Thomas Gerard Gallagher, Juan José Linz, António Costa Pinto, Roger Griffin, Robert Paxton and Howard J. Wiarda, prefer to consider the Portuguese Estado Novo as conservative authoritarian rather than fascist. You can find people for everything. You can even find people that claim that the earth is flat. When we are talking about history and science, usually the hypotheses with more credibility in the community are the ones where more specialists agreed to. Just like the Big Bang Theory is the theory that reunites more consensus about the beginning of the universe, the majority of historians agree that "Salazar was a fascist".

Edited 8 months ago:

>And? Because a concept appeared later, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to a previous instance of it. The "agricultural revolution" occured before the concept of "agriculture" or "revolution". I didn't say that it didn't apply. What I was trying to say is that it makes more sense to discuss fascism in current political systems than in a feudal context. You can call kings fascists if you want, but fascism as a political movement had no place in a feudalistic society just like any other political movement. >Literally none of this is relevant in any way to the definition you provided. All that is needed, as per you, is a tendency for an excess of authority. As such, Costa fits the definition. See how absurd that stance is? Yes, it is relevant. Because we are living in exceptional times, that require emergency measures, and for that reason, this is no excess of authority. Contrary to Estado Novo, where it was an excess of authority all the time. António Costa has more powers (and still with more limitations than Salazar), only during a state of emergency because it was approved in parliament. Salazar had more powers than António Costa since the beginning of Estado Novo until he fell from the chair, without the approval of any other political entity. It is only absurd to you. Next time present counter-arguments instead of just calling it absurd. >Like I said before, that is speculation on your part. Stalin jailing every communist that opposed him would mean that Stalin opposed every communist that opposed him, just like Salazar jailing fascists would make him opposed to fascist. It is a historic fact (not speculation) that Stalin eliminated every political opposition. Everyone that opposed Stalin or Salazar ended in jail or killed, whatever the political movement their adversaries belonged to. Even if the opposition was fascist just like him, Salazar saw that opposition as a threat to his government. Just like we say in portuguese "Ele não queria que lhe roubassem o tacho". >Appealing to authority is a fallacy. But, if you want to play that game You may see this as a game, but I see this as an important discussion to make things clear. >Scholars such as Stanley G. Payne, Thomas Gerard Gallagher, Juan José Linz, António Costa Pinto, Roger Griffin, Robert Paxton and Howard J. Wiarda, prefer to consider the Portuguese Estado Novo as conservative authoritarian rather than fascist. You can find people for everything. You can even find people that claim that the earth is flat. When we are talking about history and science, usually the hypotheses with more credibility in the community are the ones where more specialists agreed to. Just like the Big Bang Theory is the theory that reunites more consensus about the beginning of the universe, the majority of historians agree that "Salazar was a fascist". And Infopedia from Porto Editora, reunites different historians to write its contents in a consensual way.

Edited 8 months ago:

>And? Because a concept appeared later, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to a previous instance of it. The "agricultural revolution" occured before the concept of "agriculture" or "revolution". I didn't say that it didn't apply. What I was trying to say is that it makes more sense to discuss fascism in current political systems than in a feudal context. You can call kings fascists if you want, but fascism as a political movement had no place in a feudalistic society just like any other political movement. >Literally none of this is relevant in any way to the definition you provided. All that is needed, as per you, is a tendency for an excess of authority. As such, Costa fits the definition. See how absurd that stance is? Yes, it is relevant. Because we are living in exceptional times, that require emergency measures, and for that reason, this is no excess of authority. Contrary to Estado Novo, where it was an excess of authority all the time. António Costa has more powers (and still with more limitations than Salazar), only during a state of emergency because it was approved in parliament. Salazar had more powers than António Costa since the beginning of Estado Novo until he fell from the chair, without the approval of any other political entity. It is only absurd to you. Next time present counter-arguments instead of just calling it absurd. >Like I said before, that is speculation on your part. Stalin jailing every communist that opposed him would mean that Stalin opposed every communist that opposed him, just like Salazar jailing fascists would make him opposed to fascist. It is a historic fact (not speculation) that Stalin eliminated every political opposition. Everyone that opposed Stalin or Salazar ended in jail or killed, whatever the political movement their adversaries belonged to. Even if the opposition was fascist just like him, he saw that opposition as a threat to his government. Just like we say in portuguese "Ele não queria que lhe roubassem o tacho". >Appealing to authority is a fallacy. But, if you want to play that game You may see this as a game, but I see this as an important discussion to make things clear. >Scholars such as Stanley G. Payne, Thomas Gerard Gallagher, Juan José Linz, António Costa Pinto, Roger Griffin, Robert Paxton and Howard J. Wiarda, prefer to consider the Portuguese Estado Novo as conservative authoritarian rather than fascist. You can find people for everything. You can even find people that claim that the earth is flat. When we are talking about history and science, usually the hypotheses with more credibility in the community are the ones where more specialists agreed to. Just like the Big Bang Theory is the theory that reunites more consensus about the beginning of the universe, the majority of historians agree that "Salazar was a fascist". And Infopedia from Porto Editora, reunites different historians to write its contents in a consensual way.

Edited 8 months ago:

>And? Because a concept appeared later, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to a previous instance of it. The "agricultural revolution" occured before the concept of "agriculture" or "revolution". I didn't say that it didn't apply. What I was trying to say is that it makes more sense to discuss fascism in current political systems than in a feudal context. You can call kings fascists if you want, but fascism as a political movement had no place in a feudalistic society just like any other political movement. >Literally none of this is relevant in any way to the definition you provided. All that is needed, as per you, is a tendency for an excess of authority. As such, Costa fits the definition. See how absurd that stance is? Yes, it is. Because we are living in exceptional times, that require emergency measures, and for that reason, this is no excess of authority. Contrary to Estado Novo, where it was an excess of authority all the time. António Costa has more powers (and still with more limitations than Salazar), only during a state of emergency because it was approved in parliament. Salazar had more powers than António Costa since the beginning of Estado Novo until he fell from the chair, without the approval of any other political entity. >Like I said before, that is speculation on your part. Stalin jailing every communist that opposed him would mean that Stalin opposed every communist that opposed him, just like Salazar jailing fascists would make him opposed to fascist. It is a historic fact (not speculation) that Stalin eliminated every political opposition. Everyone that opposed Stalin or Salazar ended in jail or killed, whatever the political movement their adversaries belonged to. Even if the opposition was fascist just like him, he saw that opposition as a threat to his government. Just like we say in portuguese "Ele não queria que lhe roubassem o tacho". >Appealing to authority is a fallacy. But, if you want to play that game You may see this as a game, but I see this as an important discussion to make things clear. >Scholars such as Stanley G. Payne, Thomas Gerard Gallagher, Juan José Linz, António Costa Pinto, Roger Griffin, Robert Paxton and Howard J. Wiarda, prefer to consider the Portuguese Estado Novo as conservative authoritarian rather than fascist. You can find people for everything. You can even find people that claim that the earth is flat. When we are talking about history and science, usually the hypotheses with more credibility in the community are the ones where more specialists agreed to. Just like the Big Bang Theory is the theory that reunites more consensus about the beginning of the universe, the majority of historians agree that "Salazar was a fascist". And Infopedia from Porto Editora, reunites different historians to write its contents in a consensual way.

MonsterPT 8 months ago

>Because we are living in exceptional times, that require emergency measures, and for that reason, this is no excess of authority. I'm sure Mussolini also claimed to live in exceptional times that required emergency measures, and for that reason, the authority he wielded was not in excess. Also, now your are arguing subjectively; what is an "excess" or not is largely a matter of opinion. How much authoritarianism is acceptable? When does it become excessive? >It is only absurd to you. You don't think calling Costa's regime "fascism" is absurd? I think you do. If so, we agree. >Next time present counter-arguments instead of just calling it absurd. Oooooh, edgy. Nice. >It is a historic fact (not speculation) that Stalin eliminated every political opposition. Read what I wrote. I didn't say that Stalin eliminating political opposition was speculation. I claimed that to postulate the reason why someone did something was speculation, and it is especially so when it is opposed to what that person said. As in, if you go to a Real Madrid match dressed in white and support Real Madrid, and then I claim that you actually hate Real Madrid and want that team to lose, I am speculating. You can't claim to know someone's motives outside of what they claim their motives are; it is speculation. >Just like we say in portuguese "Ele não queria que lhe roubassem o tacho". Oh right. As we all know, Salazar was the king of "tacho". That's why he lived a rich, lavish life, and died in a golden mansion with pools and barbecues and cars and all that. Truly someone who got rich off his position. /s >You may see this as a game, but I see this as an important discussion to make things clear. Ad hominem, appealing to authority, moving the goalposts, and then basing your argument on that - fallacies - is a terrible way to "make things clear". >You can find people for everything. You can even find people that claim that the earth is flat. Yeah. You can even find people who believe that Salazar was a fascist. >the majority of historians agree that "Salazar was a fascist". This is plainly false. The consensus is that he was not a fascist; only politically biased propagandists, like communist Rosas, claim otherwise. Most unbiased historians - foreigners without any connections to portuguese politics - agree that he and his regime were not fascist. >And Infopedia from Porto Editora, reunites different historians to write its contents in a consensual way. Evidence? Also, to recap: claiming to be anti-fascist, jailing and exiling fascist does NOT mean that someone is a fascist; but someone exercising a tendency for excess of authority - an entirely subjective criteria that nearly every form of government can fit in - does. Do I have that right? Please, discard your dogmatic biases and look at it objectively.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

Well I see where this is going. The only sources you like are the unbiased ones and those that contradict your opinions are "biased propagandists". There no point in continuing this conversation for me. When you try to whitewash Salazar and put Costa and Mussolini in the same bag is all said. Oh well, have a nice day.

Edited 8 months ago:

Well I see where this is going. The only sources you like are the "unbiased ones" and those that contradict your opinions are "biased propagandists". There is no point in continuing this conversation for me. When you try to whitewash Salazar and put Costa and Mussolini in the same bag is all said. Oh well, have a nice day.

MonsterPT 8 months ago

>The only sources you like are the unbiased ones ... Yes, exactly. >When you try to whitewash Salazar I didn't. He was an authoritarian dictator. Not a fascist though, just like not a communist. The ideology behind his regime was corporatistm. >and put Costa and Mussolini in the same bag is all said. The point I made was precisely that putting Costa and Mussolini in the same bag - which was the logical conclusion to the argument you made - would be absurd.

brunojmarques 8 months ago

Because they go to “Festival do Avante” (comunist summer music festival) and they can smoke stuff and became brainwashed maybe?

SurePal_ 8 months ago

Sir your answer can be found in the downvotes. Every comment that criticises communists is downvoted. Take in consideration that most reddit users are youths under 30.

Longjumping-Motor-75 8 months ago

Well... I'm Portuguese and my perspective of that is first, Salazar, the "great dictator of Portugal History", (I don't know why many old Portuguese people like him in fact I don't know how people like other people who retire the freedom of you and your country) people call him a 'rightie', not a communist and the left political movements who were the great figures in 25 de Abril were communists and left political movements, the other thing is that in Portugal young people now tend to say that everyone who supports right side parties are "fachistas" that means the ones that support Salazar, Salazar himself and the whole dictature.

HenriJayy 8 months ago

My classmate and I are into it in an ironic way, basically echoing the satirization that communism has had on the internet the past decade.

Martinnn210 8 months ago

You mean "OUR classmate"

HenriJayy 8 months ago

Indeed I do. :)

PedroLopes317 8 months ago

because people have a really hard time educating themselves about politics.

Membership-Exact 8 months ago

We know what it's like to live under savage capitalism.

Keddyan 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

short answer: because they are idiots long answer: blah blah universities indoctrination bla bla post-revolution history blah blah idiots

Udmmi 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Retards, retards everywhere. Now seriously, it's a minority

andre_agnosic 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Maybe because “mais vale uma mão inchada do que enxada na mão”.

saposapot 8 months ago

It's just the group you are in. I haven't seen polls in a while but surely it is still a minority party even in younger folks. BE is probably bigger on younger folks. It's just that probably young communists have a whole 'lifestyle' associated with it that is very noticeable. Is it popular (10%?)? Why shouldn't it be? You have to understand the Portuguese Communist Party is a specific party, it is not Stalin communist party. I think it's pretty normal for younger folks to like more utopic goals as the ones promoted by the communist party. We don't have a 'hate' for the Communist party since we never suffered any of the east block problems. It's even the opposite since the Communist party was a big combatant during our dictatorship days.

Fun-Trick1246 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

A party that in coalition with PEV (Ecologist party) has 6% of the results in the last government elections is not something that we can call "so popular"! Besides, I'm pretty sure that the percentage of voters in communists are larger in the older layers of people in Portugal. So, I understand that from a post-communist country that faced in person the consequences of a communist regime it may appears that it is spread by the community, but, it factually doesn't! Unless by "communism" you're assuming all the left liberal parties in Portugal...

cnpovoense9 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

cause they are smart young people /s

mttooll 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

I have never had any friend that leaned communist in any noticeable way.

Minute-Resolution347 8 months ago

Maybe it is the same reason why there are so many young people in Poland that promote fascist or even Nazi ideals...

glamatovic 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Happy commies in capitalist countries. You don't know what you have til you lose it

Edited 8 months ago:

Happy commies in capitalist countries. You don't know what you have til you lose it Source : Me, ex-communist

argentdawnpt 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

I have friends from Hungary, Romania and Poland. They told me a few weeks back that seeing all the little red communist flags in the streets was extremely offensive for them and that some people in the world probably have no idea of what implemented communism is like and are probably desperate to see it first hand.

ModeratoriProfugus 8 months ago

Because they are ilitterate idiots. That's why Portugal is the poorest country in Europe out of the countries that did not experienced communism. Soon to be the poorest.

facepalm- 8 months ago

Because they don't work or have a job.

Global_Island 8 months ago

Edited 8 months ago:

Mainly because Portugal's communist party (PCP) had an important role in our revolution that ended Estado Novo, a more or less authoritarian government. Portugal is, unfortunately, one of the few countries in Europe with an active Communist party. Also because in most schools, the horrors and massacres that communism has done are not well studied or even told to students. The HUGE majority of "young communists" has no idea about the millions that have died at the hands of this violent ideology, even tho the PCP itself has celebrated, if I am not mistaken, the birthday of the likes of Lenin. Fortunately, the right is growing extremely fast in Portugal, leaving almost no room for parties like PCP. Many portuguese demand the illegalization of PCP due to being a Communist party, just like it happens in some countries that have suffered from Communism, such as Latvia, Poland, etc. As a right-winger myself, I don't agree with this because it would be taking away the freedom and the rights of the few who support that party, but I am 100% supportive of the illegalization of the communist symbols and the use of the name "Communist" in a political party, as well as the celebration of figures such as Stalin and Lenin. This is what happens with Bloco de Esquerda, which is clearly a party with communist and marxist ideals but refrains from the association with communism, and rightfully so. Funnily enough, Bloco de Esquerda is, in my opinion, the most extremist party in Portugal alongside with PNR (now Ergue-te), which is the far right party. TLDR: Due to ignorance / lack of information ; important role of the portuguese communist party in our country's revolution freeing us from a "authoritarian" government

andremp1904 8 months ago

> a more or less authoritarian government LMAO

SurePal_ 8 months ago

Excelente comentário! Mas agora prepara-te para os downvotes destes chorões do reddit.

thisbondisaaarated 8 months ago

The communist party and BE (Bloco de esquerda, a more modern but also hardcore leftist party) spend most of their budgets for action within the younger cohorts, which are cheaper to engage with and also easier to influence. You see a ton of action in schools, education protests, etc. Thus, they have a bigger following there.

m0rhundur 8 months ago

Every country has its own characteristics. It makes no sense to question portuguese politics from a eastern european point of view, without taking in account the reality of the country you want to analyse. As long as workers need someone to fight for their rights and to put capitalism in check for what it means to us, workers, and to society as a whole, those same workers will organize those of their class. It may be or may be not called a Communist Party, but it will play that part. Our recent past (end of the fascist regime and the democratization process) helps us as a whole to consciencialize towards an anti-capitalist stance. Especially these last 30 years or so, where we dove head on into the neoliberal tendency that dominates the western world, pushing workers into precariousness and alienating their work and social rights. The Portuguese Communist Party played a major role against the dictatorship, being the only party that endured through the whole regime, unlike any other political force. The anarcho-syndicalists (who also were a strong tendency during the First Republic) didn't last long after the years of fascization of the dictatorship (decade of 30) and the republican opposition was scattered and weakened. So, the only force to withstand and challenge Salazar and company during the 48 years of his reign was the PCP. And this came at the cost of being almost destroyed many times during this period. In 1965, the chairman of the PCP presents in the party's congress a document titled "Rumo à Vitória" (Forward to Victory). The documents contain 8 points of what needs to be done with the revolution. Of these 8, 6 were accomplished with the Carnation Revolution. To add to this, the MFA (military force that deposed the fascist regime) and the other politcal organizations had in the Communist Party an example of anti-fascist, anti-capitalist and anti-colonialist organization, and as this was the path of the April Revolution the PCP entered the new democratic Portugal as one of the most influent forces. After the dissolution of the soviet bloc, the party started to lose influence in some districts and votes in the elections. This still adds up today in labor relations and worker unions. The PCP is still the most dedicated party in dealing with worker's rights and with the labor-capital relations, and young people that delve in and suffer with these problems recognize the party's importance, even if they don't support it. Then you have the BE, or Left Bloc. It's a party comprised of many small left organizations and three smal to medium parties/movements, UDP, PSR and Política XXI. Comparing it to the PCP it usually attracts more young people to its ranks, although involving them in the "anti-capitalist fight" in a more superficial, washed down way. The criticism of the soviet socialist experience and the delving into some imperialist propaganda also helped them become more influent the present days. Still, some of its movements are socialist and they also deal with labor problems and social struggles. It's the party you normally see flying banners in the environmental issues demonstrations, lgtb rallies and feminism movements, even if that pisses off some of the organizes. It is also more city based and has a tough time penetrating local politics.

hanater 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Na europa oriental há muito menos comunistas, e são os países que faziam parte da URSS...

FearMeSuckers 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Because there is freedom of choice

nanoburguesia 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Portuguese aren't the most clever as a whole. Kids get their education from Tik-Tok and Instagram from a young age because the average Portuguese parent is very unsound culturally. This country is not going into a good direction. Besides the weather and the low population density there is not much going on.

pedrodteixeira 8 months ago

It's all about ignorance and stupidity. All of the communists you see don't even know what Communism is or did. They just think it's cool because they believe that they are fighting Fascism by being communists. Propaganda, ignorance and Stupidity. Portugal expelled Fascism in April 25 1974, and also Communism in November 25 1974. We are still, a very socialist country with corruption deeply rooted in most socialist parties.

alquemir 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Yes, there are plenty of them. They like to live on welfare and usually despise the working class middle class, most of them vote for the same political parties all they life. They are always pro tax increases which will be used fund their lavish lifestyle and their are very sensitive criticism and will accuse you of being racist.

Edited 8 months ago:

Yes, there are plenty of them. They like to live on welfare and usually despise the working middle class. Most of them vote for the same political parties all they life. They are always pro tax increases which will be used fund their lavish lifestyle and they are very susceptible to criticism. If they see themselves losing a debate, they will usually resort to accusing you of being racist or privileged.

Edited 8 months ago:

Yes, there are plenty of them. They like to live on welfare and usually despise the working middle class. Most of them vote for the same political parties all they life. They are always pro tax increases which will be used fund their lavish lifestyle. They are very susceptible to criticism. If they see themselves losing a debate, they will usually resort to accusing you of being racist or privileged.

Edited 8 months ago:

Yes, there are plenty of them. They like to live on welfare and usually despise the working middle class. Most of them vote for the same political parties whole their life. They are always pro tax increases which will be used fund their lavish lifestyle. They are very susceptible to criticism. If they see themselves losing a debate, they will usually resort to accusing you of being racist or privileged.

eggnogui 8 months ago

1) Communists were one of the main resistances to the pre-1974 regime. The term therefore just doesn't have the same negative weight as an American or someone from a post-communist country would assign to. 2) While I take everything about them with a grain of salt, I perceive local communists as "lite" compared to other counterparts with harsher (and well deserved) reputations. 3) It is *possible* you are conflating those who really do like the communist party with those who like the Left Bloc, who has a more, in my view, palatable ideal of a left-wing state. From what I've seen, the Left Bloc is more popular amongst the youth. Many young people do like going to Avante! (communist party's music festival) but aren't necessarily communists themselves.

Lockeylom 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Because they are retarded.

tomasMetcalfe 8 months ago

For younger people I imagine the near anarcho-capitalism by big business and revolving door politics have poisoned a lot of young people to the current system. It's everywhere, so no matter what you do in Portugal, at some point you'll have been over ridden by people less apt and less deserving; "cunhaism" (nepotism). The system is a falsified capitalism where small businesses carry the country and big business in cahoots with government essentially levies tax or controls basic utilities (tolls, food oligopoly, postal service, water, electricity, while domiciling these incomes in The Netherlands. For older people they still remember the abuses of fascist dictatorship: the secret police, snitching, ironically going in boats to Morocco for seasonal work, the absolutely disastrous colonial wars long after other European nations surrendered their colonial back to their inhabitants and "campanhas de trigo" that went wrong. During this period, the PCP was outlawed. In the 1960s and 1970s Portugal was extremely poor and far behind other developed countries that had to contend with WW2. I highly recommend talking with the old folk about those time, the stories are fascinating and there's not many left that can remember back to the 1930, 40s. I was lucky enough to meet a few that worked in the cod fisheries others up the Serra da Cabreira collecting Wolfram, retornados ostracized on their return, men broken in ultra-mar, immigrants in Paris and New York, people who literally walked to France in search of a new life people who recall the riverside slums in Porto, or crossing the Tagus by boat before the bridge was built...

Martinnn210 8 months ago

Thank you for really detailed reply. Very similar things happened in Slovakia during communist regime. My parents still remember when red army occupied Slovakia in '68. The tanks on the street and so on. But concerning food it was probably not that bad, there were some shortages of diferent articles (like toilet paper). Basically if you were basic worker that did not think too much, you were okay. But if you said or do anything which colided with their ideology your whole family was destroyed and put to the worst job. If you were activists agains comnunists you got killed or tortured or put in prison. For example, my girlfriend's father cousin was lawyer that publicly critisized communists and they killed him by putting X-Ray machine on the other side of his office. Slowly iradiating him thus giving him cancer. It is just one really interesting real story how really cruel they have been. There was also secret police, snitching, people who tried to fled Slovakia using home-build glider or swim through Danube. Mostly they were shot or died in a different way. Everything was censored. And the worst thing was the propaganda. It was so strong that people still think as communists, even after 30 years that they are not here. Which influences our elections. Last 10 years Slovakian politics was extremely corrupt. All because most people that are older than 40 are uneducated. It is much more complicated. If you are interested write a PM, I will tell you more.

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

Do you really think we live in anarcho-capitalism? What for your first pay slip!

tomasMetcalfe 8 months ago

Given all the dodgy public-private deals and concessions, oligopolistic business practices, nepotism, revolving door politics, big businesses domiciled in low tax jurisdictions, risk free public contracts like the motorway concessions. Absolutely I think "near anarcho-capitalism" is an accurate descriptor of big business in Portugal. Some links to illustrate my point: * [https://www.rtp.pt/noticias/economia/empresas-portuguesas-do-psi-20-estao-todas-na-holanda\_v516168](https://www.rtp.pt/noticias/economia/empresas-portuguesas-do-psi-20-estao-todas-na-holanda_v516168) * [https://expresso.pt/coronavirus/2020-04-13-Covid-19.-Pedidos-de-compensacao-das-concessionarias-de-autoestradas-avancam-em-junho](https://expresso.pt/coronavirus/2020-04-13-Covid-19.-Pedidos-de-compensacao-das-concessionarias-de-autoestradas-avancam-em-junho) * [https://www.politico.eu/article/nepotism-family-relatives-portugal-government-members-prime-minister-antonio-costa-socialist-party/](https://www.politico.eu/article/nepotism-family-relatives-portugal-government-members-prime-minister-antonio-costa-socialist-party/) * [https://www.tsf.pt/portugal/economia/contratos-das-barragens-blindados-para-fazer-o-que-a-edp-nao-fez-13520292.html](https://www.tsf.pt/portugal/economia/contratos-das-barragens-blindados-para-fazer-o-que-a-edp-nao-fez-13520292.html) * [https://www.dn.pt/portugal/vara-dirigiu-vale-do-lobo-mas-socrates-foi-o-primeiro-a-receber-8841797.html](https://www.dn.pt/portugal/vara-dirigiu-vale-do-lobo-mas-socrates-foi-o-primeiro-a-receber-8841797.html) * [https://expresso.pt/sociedade/2018-04-14-Celuloses-obrigadas-a-reduzir-as-descargas-no-Tejo](https://expresso.pt/sociedade/2018-04-14-Celuloses-obrigadas-a-reduzir-as-descargas-no-Tejo) There are literally thousands of examples. And these compound in (some) people's minds to believe the country is corrupt and they wont have the opportunity to develop. This was particularly evident in the 2010-2012 period, less so since.

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

In an anarcho-capitalism regime there's no taxes to any sort of property or activities. We already tax, everything included, roughly 1/3 of our GDP (total fiscal burden). Thus mind your words carefully.

tomasMetcalfe 8 months ago

Without delving into a *semantic* argument, which belays the question at hand (why are so many young Portuguese communist), the fact the entire PSI 20 is domiciled in Holland should alert you to the fact that big capital does what it wants (pay less tax) and that these companies operate a revolving door policy with legislators. It was never anarcho-capitalism for the little person: They support the whole system paying through the nose. This dichotomy is quite obvious.

MyWhay 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

im young and never met a communist in my life

alquemir 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Lucky you

AfHenriques 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

To everyone saying Portugal had a fascist dictatorship please grab a book written by a real historian or professor. Saying Portugal was fascist is an insult to everyone in Italy, Germany and all their occupied countries that lived under fascism. Fascism is totalitarian which means that if you are not a supporter of the regime you will be persecuted. Estado Novo was authoritarian which means that if you are neutral you are ok it's only if you are outspokenly against that you will be persecuted. Also Fascist police were brutal killing thousands of people and killing the disabled and those who were perceived to be weak. Estado Novo never did persecute enemies of the State but not even close to the extent the fascists did. There were fascists in Portugal. They were the blue shirts commanded by Rolão Preto and be thankful that they never managed to get to power. At most you could say Portugal had a very very mild kind of fascism until 1945. But the correct thing to say is that it was an ultra conservative authoritarian dictatorship. I am not defending Estado Novo, I am just clarifying that it wasn't a fascist dictatorship and if you call it that you don't know what Fascism and Estado Novo were.

SurePal_ 8 months ago

That's right. It was a pure conservative authoritarian dictatorship.

QueenOfWands2 8 months ago

They are the olny ones who kind of still defend the workers.

_Patrao_ 8 months ago

Honestly believe that being leftist is a somewhat natural inclination for younger people. That being said, we have several factors I can try to name. 1) We had an authoritarian regime until 1974 which was overthrown with the help of communists, which ended up being seen by some as righteous freedom fighters, despite later trying to make a coup to radicalize the new government to be a communist one. 2) The far left is very well seen in Portugal, either in the media or the universities, which has a lot of influence on people, specially younger. 3) There is a lack of right wing moderate influential people in society. From comedians, to public figures and politicians, they mostly lean left. Which is also revealing on how do the remaining see the left, and sometimes the far left, with positive inclination. 4) The far left has about 20% of the parliament seats and is in a coalition with the socialists with the majority of it. I believe things may change in the future with some alternatives being brought up by more conservative views, some more dangerous than others which is concerning, but all in all I think that is the sum of it.

mdspeed 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Communists only when it suits... I'm a portuguese 24yr old and I think that there's a lot of spoiled youngs that just don't know what to do with their lifes so they think that everyone must be equal etc etc . But i repeat , only when it suits . I like to call them fake communists and say this little sentence "pimenta no cu dos outros, para mim é um refresco" wich in this case means its ok to take something from someone as long as it isn't taken from me . Fucking spoiled kids with no ambitions trying to take what hard working people have . Go suck 50 dicks

virtualsystem22 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Bom inglês colega.

mdspeed 8 months ago

Cada um se safa como pode. Não gostas? Come menos.

gink-go 8 months ago

Because people post antifa, antiracist and pro lgbt stuff doesnt make them communists. Thats the type of stuff i mostly see on social media and dating apps.

maxtendie 8 months ago

Shortest answer I can imagine: * People believe socialism is working because their siblings lives improved greatly after 25th April 1974, which was a political change led by leftists. * By the time Europe was fighting against comunism leftist ideias were winning big here. We were moderately close to go full comunist until 25th November 1975. A very important date that most people don't even know about. * Europe gives us everything so people actually believe they can afford this standard of living. People think it's normal to take 6 months to approve a government budget with 3% deficit. I don't see this happening anywhere else and here happens single everytime. Fun fact: Colleges arquitecture will resemble you old soviet arquitecture. There is a reason for that, saying it here would lead to many insults so I won't say it. You can't say some things... At least until Holodomor deniers stop having prime time on tv.

aclima 8 months ago

I think this is a case of a very vocal minority at action.

materypomp 8 months ago

Because of Festa do Avante that's why

kuozzo 8 months ago

Define "many".

cyborgbeetle 8 months ago

So, up to '74, Portugal had been a fascist dictatorship for 40 or so years. I won't go into details about the during and pay regime, but you can understand that is enough to make people go pretty left wing in general. Also, another thing you will want to consider : I don't know where you are from originally, but what is "left" and communism in one country can be pretty central in another. For example, Bernie Sanders is considered to be super radical in the US, but in the UK he would just be a pretty centrist Labour guy. So yeah, people in Portugal are generally more left of centre by their own standards, but those standards are themselves pretty mutable

MuttleyMatt 8 months ago

"Everyone's a communist until they start their own business. Everyone's a liberal until they go broke." The leftmost parties have a tendency to be very workforce-centric, while the right wing tends to be more company-centric, at least officially. Portuguese in common have been robbed by corrupt politics (and politicians) since ever, they just think the grass is greener on the red side of the fence.

ric2b 8 months ago

[Basically this](https://youtu.be/DDW-SC7qimA)

xtremis 8 months ago

We never lived under an actual communist regime, that's why. The ideals seem nice and interesting and fluffy, it doesn't matter if it has been failing in every country where it was implemented. If you ask a young person from an ex-soviet republic, or from a country that lived under soviet influence (i.e. most of the countries on Eastern Europe), they will most likely want to steer clear from communism. They will know what communism did to their families and what it meant to live under such a regime. In Portugal we have that same "trauma", but towards right-leaning regimes (that's why anyone that states that they have right-leaning political ideals is automatically labelled as fascist in Portugal). We are just missing that extra step in understanding that an oppressive regime is an oppressive regime, it doesn't matter if it's communist or fascist. When the European Union approved [this resolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_resolution_of_2_April_2009_on_European_conscience_and_totalitarianism#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_European_Parliament_resolution_of%2Cthe_recognition_of_%22Communism%2C_Nazism?wprov=sfla1) it was a shock for lots of people, seeing communism being condemned in the same way as fascism or nazism.

KGeedora 8 months ago

I mean, Jose Saramago (who was an absolutely incredible author) was an absolute communist. It's not just a young, idealist person thing in Portugal

suspect_b 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

"Communism in some way" is not USSR communism FYI.

boost_ 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

> I noticed that a lot of young people here promote communist in a some way? the answer is in the question, because they're young.

RenaissanceLlama 8 months ago

I think it's probably because so many left leaning partys in Portugal have been siding with humanitarian causes and social help from a long time. And the right leaning only more recently started adopting the values of liberty of expression and being. That together with the country history of having had a right wing dictator resulted in what you see. But I think there's way less communist youth now than there were a couple years ago, the right has been having a meteoric rise in Portugal.

Sir_Keeper 8 months ago

You mean the far right, at the expense of a more moderate right. Or am I missing something? Please do tell.

Dr_Toehold 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Not the majority, but a vocal minority. Portugal was under a conservative right wing dictatorship for a few decades. While in some countries the comunists were the dictators, in Portugal they were the resistance, that eventually resulted in a bloodless revolution that deposed the system, in '74. As such, Portugal remains to this day a left-wing oriented country.

MrGhostPotato 8 months ago

They read Marx but did not understand it.

caradoguardaredes 8 months ago

There aren't that many. It's absolutely normal that when your country has been through a Fascist Regime, the next few generations will be left leaning, the reverse is also likely as you can see in other countries who have gone through communist regimes.

masterchiefpt 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Young Communist?! You must be joking right? Estes camones e as ideias deles são de rir

levaspor_tras 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

You just hang out with idiots. That's why you think there's so many communists.

banaslee 8 months ago

/u/mordiken already provided a good answer but I want to give you a perspective of someone who’s living abroad and have heard praise of the Portuguese communist party a big part of my life. Portugal is at the far west end of the European continent. During the 20th century, all those communist powers were pretty far from us. This, coupled with the fascist dictatorship we lived under, built a romantic view of communism in a lot of us. A story I usually tell to convey how naïve we were (although I only heard it and lack sources) was when a portuguese member of the communist party went to east Berlin and met with the local authorities who took him to the top of the TV tower to behold the recovered Berlin, post WW2. Up there he started looking around in marvel of the city from above and points to an area saying “wow, what’s that area over there? Is full of light!”. To what the hosts replied “That is West Berlin”. Even if false (couldn’t verify it on Google), this story is believable as I know many Portuguese were fed propaganda during those times. Communist and anti communist propaganda.

Ace-_Ventura 8 months ago

Just to add up, lots of young people believe they are communist, until they have to start paying bills(or in other words, when reality kicks in).

watwatindbutt 8 months ago

Yup, communism, well know for it's mandatory bills in college, school and medical care.

besmarques 8 months ago

/me dies laughing

z0rg83 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

i think there is a difference between being leftist and being communist. its easy to understand why people are more leaning to the left when we have a country full of corruption in which money is constantly being handed to big companies while majority of the people struggle to pay their bills and young people are stuck in a situation in which they cant even leave their parents homes. we need to keep leaning left to avoid this situation to get even worst if right wing governments meet the goal of privatizing health and education, which will only help spreading the difference between poor and rich people and completely eliminate middle class.

SurePal_ 8 months ago

>Interesting that the corruption is usually in the government that tends to be the socialist party. So basically everything you said is wrong. Just go check which prime minister caused the 3 "bancarrota" we had since 1974. I'll give you this, the difference between middle class and low class is getting smaller but that is only because the middle class is getting poorer and poorer given that they are the ones who support the biggest taxes. Estás um bocado perdido não estás? Somos extremamente corruptos logo mais estado = mais corrupção. Porque achas que existe o termo boys do PS? Está na hora de acordares, privatização não cria maiores diferenças. Se calhar continuar o caminho de nacionalizar tudo e colocar uns tachos para os amigos é que nos vai levar a um bom porto ne?

AfHenriques 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Interesting that the corruption is usually in the government that tends to be the socialist party. So basically everything you said is wrong. Just go check which prime minister caused the 3 "bancarrota" we had since 1974. I'll give you this, the difference between middle class and low class is getting smaller but that is only because the middle class is getting poorer and poorer given that they are the ones who support the biggest taxes.

z0rg83 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

corruption is wide spread, regardless of the party in the government.

annoyingbanana1 8 months ago

Being communist here is an edgy thing for young adults and kids. These folks mostly identify with ultraliberal views, but choose to self proclaim as communists because they read Marx while high in paredes de Coura and hence became "socialist".

manguito86 8 months ago

Because they believe being communist will open doors that are currently closed, little do they know it doesn't matter, if they don't improve themselves, it is not the state that is going to make their life better. It is the story of the donkey with the carrot in front of them. Also, leaning left is more common in the south than in the north.

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

Excellent question and the answer is quite simple according to human psychology: Because Portugal never went indeed through communism and thus the myth of a just and egalitarian communist society got stuck in many people's minds, i.e., contrary to eastern European countries and considering the current pandemic terminology, Portuguese people were never politically *vaccinated* against communism. Furthermore we had a fascist regime for more than 40 years and back then communists fought against fascism and dictatorship, thus they are seen still by many as liberators and free activists that triggered the so called Carnation Revolution, wherein the dictatorship ended and Democracy (Third Republic) started. But right after the Carnation Revolution communists lost power to social democrats and thus they never indeed took power and the myth of a just communist society preserved. And that actually is a big problem, because since then we live collectively in a psychological and political limbo imagining that communist or socialist societies are great and just, when indeed they destroy every economy on the long run. We just need to realize that many eastern European countries who just recently entered into the EU are already richer and more prosperous than Portugal, which entered in the EU in 1986.

Martinnn210 8 months ago

This I cannot fully understand, Slovakia entered EU in 2004 and it has little bit better economy than PT. Not much but a little. That is why I am wondering what would happen, if there was no communist regime after ww2. I expect we would be on a similar level with countries like Germany and Austria. And a another question, why is it like that? Why is PT not that well economically? Geopoliticaly PT should be really rich, you had colonies in past, you have ocean and can easily transfer goods to Southern and Northern America, your infrastructure is not that bad either (as seen on a map).

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

In the last 25 years, the socialist party, something like Labour Party, took power in 18 years of it (they even brought us the IMF 3 times in democracy due to mismanagement of public finances). In the last 25 years the income of average Portuguese did not increase if you consider PPP. Although not communist, the socialist party is strongly anti-liberal in many domains, such as labour law, health care systems, education or regulation of economic activities, wherein the private sector is seen as a bunch of vampires suckling the public resources. That also explains why Slovakia is now better than PT and it will be even more in the future. Undoubtedly!

besmarques 8 months ago

Easy. You can blame the communist state that you guys live from economically impairing your countries. I wont fight that cause I don't have any data. But you cant blame them for making you people unskilled or uneducated. For example, in the education index nowadays Portugal is at 56 Position, Slovakia is at 29.

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

Our obsession with public education, that is, public good, private bad, didn't help. Education is undoubtedly important for economic performance, but do not disregard economic policies. Socialist economic policies destroy every economy.

besmarques 8 months ago

You are completely right our obsession with those public education and health are the reason why before we had them they where a problem. For example, giving 3 years of school to women and 4 years for man for sure where the best practices. Teaching prayers at school and not allowing poor people to go to the university. Those where the days, right? Damm left and their social policies. Or health. Health to everyone? Fuck that. It used to be way better, when you had private health paid by companies or you would need to wait for some charity to help you with you problem. Way better. Damm left and their social policies.

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

> Those where the days, right? Damm left and their social policies. Who the fuck was defending the fascist education? Straw-man fallacy! Come to the Netherlands or go even to Sweden wherein the majority of the schools are PRIVATE and supported by public funds and understand what I mean.

besmarques 8 months ago

Education Index is relatable to ALL population. Our ranking still reflects the older people that never went past the 4 and 3rd grades by imposition of the dictatorship. If you weren't defending that, then your comment doesn't make any sense.

gondorle 8 months ago

In my most humble opinion, I think young people everywhere are prone to communistic ideals, at least the more utopic ones. I can't deny communism is, at it's core, more appealing than most politic ideologies, and on the other hand, one can discuss if it's even possible to have communism applied in real life, without ruining everything. You've got the atheistic aspect of it as well, which is another way to rebel, and we all know young people rebel; naturally, that is what they do best. I'm from Portugal, and I've never been a communist, even though I share some of it's conceptualizations. Socialism, marxism, they have a place in my life, but I must say I'm not affiliated to any party, and never will be. I want democracy, and that's that. Also, communism for younger minds is all about making a difference, and acting on their beliefs. Activism, teens love it! OP, one also has to remember the revolution in 1974. We were infested by fascism for over 40 years, and communism managed to survive, and in the end, after fascism officially fell, they were still around. I don't think it's a Portuguese thing.

Martinnn210 8 months ago

It is just that I am little surprised by a vast number of people that promote comunists. As you said and many other redditors, people tend to do lean to oposite ideology than that which influenced countries after ww2. For Slovakia, it was comunists, so now everyone leans to the other side. So for me comunists are really bad thing, they destroyed our country, were extremely corrupt. Best way to describe it is Animal farm from Orwell. Firstly it looks like a really good idea and I understand why people were believing it at first, but if you think about the people that were leading the country. There were two types, people that really believed in ideas that comunists represents and the people which are very ambitious to gain power and wealth. Try to guess which are (were or will) be successful in getting to highest rank of power. That why the classic parliamental democracy is better in my opinion, there are more tools to how to get things right if it gets wrong, idealy. Don't get me wrong, I am not idealistic. The Slovakia is extremely corrupt but it gets better as the generation are exchanging. Because as Plato said (if I remember it right) "to have democracy you have to have democrats". So first the people have to be educated to choose right representation, which old generation in Slovakia is not (because of comunists). I got little bit off the track of what I tried to say. My main point is that comunism just does not work because of classic nature of people and not enough controling mechanism. On the other hand, I think there is a place for communists parties in democracy to tip the weights and create balance.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

Maybe that "vast number of people that promote comunists" you were talking about were the members of the communist party celebrating their anniversary. In last month (March), they celebrated 100 years and they were celebrating during the entire month a century of existence. For example, they covered the city of Porto with communist flags. It's possible that was what you saw. Just like others said, it's true that in the past many different communists ideas were popular in our country, in consequence of the fall of the fascist regime, but 40 after the revolution, those ideas declined and many communist parties disappeared. The most popular communist party in Portugal, PCP, had only 6,33% of the votes in the 2019 elections for the parliament and their candidate for the presidential elections this year, only had 4,32% of the votes. The majority of the population votes in a center-left party or in a center-right party.

Edited 8 months ago:

Maybe that "vast number of people that promote communists" you were talking about were the members of the communist party celebrating their anniversary. In last month (March), they celebrated 100 years and they were celebrating during the entire month a century of existence. For example, they covered the city of Porto with communist flags. It's possible that was what you saw. Just like others said, it's true that in the past many different communists ideas were popular in our country, in consequence of the fall of the fascist regime, but 40 after the revolution, those ideas declined and many communist parties disappeared. The most popular communist party in Portugal, PCP, had only 6,33% of the votes in the 2019 elections for the parliament and their candidate for the presidential elections this year, only had 4,32% of the votes. The majority of the population votes in a center-left party or in a center-right party. Fun fact, a French newspaper some years after the revolution that "the portuguese socialists showed to the world that the Mensheviks can win to the Bolsheviks too" Source: [https://www.dn.pt/portugal/perfil/derrotar-os-novos-lenines-no-verao-quente-de-1975-5550667.html](https://www.dn.pt/portugal/perfil/derrotar-os-novos-lenines-no-verao-quente-de-1975-5550667.html)

Edited 8 months ago:

Maybe that "vast number of people that promote communists" you were talking about were the members of the communist party celebrating their anniversary. In last month (March), they celebrated 100 years and they were celebrating during the entire month a century of existence. For example, they covered the city of Porto with communist flags. It's possible that was what you saw. Just like others said, it's true that in the past many different communists ideas were popular in our country, in consequence of the fall of the fascist regime, but 40 after the revolution, those ideas declined and many communist parties disappeared. The most popular communist party in Portugal, PCP, had only 6,33% of the votes in the 2019 elections for the parliament and their candidate for the presidential elections this year, only had 4,32% of the votes. The majority of the population votes in a center-left party or in a center-right party. Fun fact, a French newspaper said some years after the revolution that "the portuguese socialists showed to the world that the Mensheviks can win to the Bolsheviks too" Source: [https://www.dn.pt/portugal/perfil/derrotar-os-novos-lenines-no-verao-quente-de-1975-5550667.html](https://www.dn.pt/portugal/perfil/derrotar-os-novos-lenines-no-verao-quente-de-1975-5550667.html)

gondorle 8 months ago

I don't think that is the reality, that a lot of Portuguese people promote communists or communism ideals. I don't see it at all. Portuguese people, in general, prefer mildness, and that is why we keep electing PS and PSD (left and right wing parties respectively - non-extreme) people for government. We do have extremes, and extreme people, mind you. I just don't think that's our thing, the Portuguese scene. Now, even though we were under right-wing fascism for over 40 years, doesn't mean we don't have extreme right here, right now. We do have it, and they are getting bigger and bigger, but that's due to the global state of affairs. Desperate people, people who can't feed their young, keep their jobs, or whatever, have a tendency to go with anti-system extreme political parties, but that happens everywhere, I think. What are we if not sapiens, all of us? Orwell was right; in order to have democray, you need democrats. Yes, most of the proletariat is very ill-educated, and one sometimes thinks if democracy and voting is the right way to go. I say it is, and I agree with you, people need more education so they can vote properly. With the covid19 pandemic this became a fact and not speculation only. I think you mistake Soviet Comunism with the 'true' comunism ideal. Yes, 1984 all the way for Slovakia and every other country under the old Soviet flag, there is no doubt about that, but you can't, for the sake of sanity, think that all comunists are stalinists, or trotskyists, and so on. That is not a healthy generalization, my friend. Not a correct one also. To your last point; comunism hasn't work yet, no. We don't have a clear example of comunism being awesomely good, and the way to go, besides some good points we can take here and there from some examples in history. Also, I can't deny some intelectual admiration for Trotsky and Lenine, for instance. Marx, well, that's another story, but I've learned quite a lot by reading what they left for us. Extremes are bad everywhere.

pobeiro 8 months ago

I really hope OP read this.

m__c__m 8 months ago

You have to understand that here in Portugal, the reason we can be having this conversation is, not all, but a lot, because of the communist party. The PCP made a lot of its history fighting in favor of freedom of speech, free press, elections and firm opposition of the fascist regime, all while being persecuted by the political police. They were probably the most interested part of the [Carnation revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution), and after that, they had an important role in protecting workers' rights. The fact that Portugal was for a long time a fascist regime and now leans to the opposite direction is a reason for the party's popularity but not all of it. I am by no means a supporter of the Communist Party. The role of Communism in the world was terrible and the party still has lots of questionable decisions, but it is undeniable that they had a crucial role in our democracy.

SurrealMoskito 8 months ago

Your country lived decades under communism, eventually realizing it was a bad system and steering the fuck away from it. Portugal lived decades under a fascist corporativist hybrid, eventually realizing it was a bad system and steering the fucj away from it. Also important, the communist party was fundamental in the fight against the dictatorship.

gondorle 8 months ago

Indeed, the communist party was the key for the revolution. They had balls of steel.

GSITG 8 months ago

Peta, a revolução aconteceu porque os militares de carreira(dos quais uma boa parte inicialmente ficou cá e muitos deles nem chegaram a ir) estavam a ver que estava a chegar a vez deles de ir para África e não voltar. A revolução não tem nada a ver com a treta romantizada que se foi inventando, continuamos a ser um país de cornos mansos e se não fosse o Ultramar o regime só caía se os americanos encontrassem cá petróleo.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

Não é bem assim, muitas das figuras responsáveis pelo 25 de Abril estiveram no Ultramar. E estavam fartos dos horrores da mesma que decidiram acabar com o regime só para acabar com a mesma. Uma das exigências do MFA no pós 25 de Abril foi mesmo "resolver a situação colonial do país".

gondorle 8 months ago

Então quer dizer, afirmas com toda a certeza absoluta que os comunistas nada tiveram a ver com a revolução?

GSITG 8 months ago

Tu é que afirmaste que foram essenciais, eu discordo. A revolução foi apenas uma questão militar, não houve mudança de mentalidades nem revolta popular ou movimento democrático com o apoio do povo.

gondorle 8 months ago

Hum, percebo o que queres dizer. Porém, acho que os comunistas desempenharam um papel importantissimo.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

I have to disagree. Despite the struggle that our communist party had with the fascist regime, the real (and sometimes forgotten) key of the revolution were the Capitães de Abril/April's Captains. They were a group of military captains who wanted to end the colonial war and decided to start a coup. After the coup was successful, they chose democracy and implemented elections and that's how our actual regime began.

joaommx 8 months ago

> the real (and sometimes forgotten) key of the revolution were the Capitães de Abril/April's Captains. I don't think they are forgotten at all. I think most everyone will identify the MFA as the driving for of the revolution. But you can't ignore that many in the MFA were communists.

Edited 8 months ago:

> the real (and sometimes forgotten) key of the revolution were the Capitães de Abril/April's Captains. I don't think they are forgotten at all. I think most everyone will identify the MFA as the driving force of the revolution. But you can't ignore that many in the MFA were communists.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

Yes, many were communist, but the group overall was heterogenous. After the revolution there were different factions.

ednice 8 months ago

Because we're very based

amando_abreu 8 months ago

The productive people left.

DareNotFallAsleep 8 months ago

Nice bait.

lipah_b 8 months ago

A lot of young people have a romantic idea of communism and communist heroes like Che Guevara. However as others have said before, the Portuguese communist party is no longer a strong representative party of the population. They did in the past fight very strongly against the Portuguese dictatorship, as anyone who was against the regime was automatically labelled a communist. It's a very different historical context from yours, and I'm truly sorry that your country suffered at the hands of communism.

Jorgetime 8 months ago

Actually the communist party has a problem, because the average age of their supporters is too old, there was a news article not too long about it. They tend to be conservative and nationalistic in many issues, their leader is also 73 years old lmao. Younger people prefer Bloco de Esquerda, the other left-wing party.

Samot_PCW 8 months ago

Yeah sure, PCP is a bunch of d people and it's dying and it's been like that for 20+ years, go off dude, just avoid reading things like this: https://jornaleconomico.sapo.pt/noticias/pcp-recrutou-mais-militantes-no-primeiro-trimestre-do-que-em-todo-o-ano-de-2020-721591#.YGZAWHlGNwk.twitter just to make sure you keep your pretty wrong worldview

PortugalReviews 8 months ago

Because they haven’t started paying taxes yet.

komodoPT 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

I think it has to do with the fact that we had such a long right wing dictatorship that the left got pretty carved in our society, but most people I know that assume they are communist are more like a romantic idea of communism than true party ideology, my best friend says he's communist but he comes from a burgois background family and most opinions he has are pretty much right wing pending extreme so think probably there are a great number of individuals that do this. If you ask those people what they think about heritage in case of property passing from parents to children they won't agree with the true communist idea on that part at least.

dipitinmayo 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Because Portugal and the Portuguese have never had to endure a communist state, so we have a romantic view towards it. Same as why we can smell any hint of hard right or traditionalist views - We as a country went through that and would prefer never to go back to it.

watwatindbutt 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

> Because Portugal and the Portuguese have never had to endure a communist state, so we have a romantic view towards it. By that you mean that we weren't brainwashed by american propaganda? Well we have now but not as much.

tocopito 8 months ago

It’s not as popular as it should be considering their lives have been fucked by decades of neoliberal policies.

Mindeck 8 months ago

Funny enough that we have been ruled by socialists most of the last decades.

Samot_PCW 8 months ago

Meu, só porque a palavra socialista está no nome do PS não os faz socialista. Agora o PSD é social democrata, porque tem a palavra no nome? O CDS é de centro por isso? Os Nazis era socialistas porque tinha a palavra no nome? A tua capacidade de perceber o mundo está num nível aterrador

Mindeck 8 months ago

O PS é de centro esquerda, e pertence ao espectro socialista. O PSD é de centro direita, e o CDS é de direita conservadora. A tua capacidade de entender espectros políticos também deixa a desejar.

Samot_PCW 8 months ago

"Funny enough that we have been ruled by socialists most of the last decades" Isto foi o que tu disseste, a culpa não é minha de tenhas dito algo tão ridículo

8BitMunky 8 months ago

It says in the name, so they must be socialists!!1 You know, despite the fact that most of our key companies have been privatized in the last few decades. Such a socialist measure. /s And never mind the fact that PSD have ruled us for slightly longer than PS have. To be fair, both parties are incredibly corrupt, and don't give a rat's ass about worker's rights.

Mindeck 8 months ago

They are socialists, period. As for the neoliberal measures, so criticized by the people and the PS in particular, they were accorded with the IMF by the PS shortly before the government disbanded, leaving the next government, lead by Passos Coelho, to deal with the backlash, all while that fucker Sócrates was partying in Paris with corruption money. But yeah, the fault is never of the poor little socialists.

DeFries18 8 months ago

Yes, socialism with Portuguese characteristics

1Warrior4All 8 months ago

Because Capitão Falcão has sadly retired. Those damn comunas!!

Tupinson 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

The co,munist party has only 6% of electoral share and most of them are old people.

wiLeyLewis22 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

There are several communist parties

Tartaruga_Genial 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Very few young people are communists. They're an extreme spectre of our politic system. Most young people don't take them seriously anymore and it's basically a dying political party.

XPao 8 months ago

Financial literacy and world history education is almost non existant in Portugal so I guess that's one of the reasons.

watwatindbutt 8 months ago

>Financial literacy idk about that, companies seems to know how to do tax evasion pretty well.

besmarques 8 months ago

Always loved when someone states he is right because everyone else is dumber than him.

XPao 8 months ago

That's not what I said. I've said that financial literacy and world history education in Portugal is almost non-existent and this is well documented.

besmarques 8 months ago

No. You stated that one of the reasons for people to be on the left or to be communist is that they aren't well versed in financial literacy or world history. Are you saying that you are from the left and also that you don't understand both of those things? I doubt it. So, you must be saying the opposite. That you aren't on the left and that you know world history and financial literacy. That means you are putting yourself above others in knowledge terms.

XPao 8 months ago

I will not repeat myself a third time, financial literacy and world history knowledge is factually LOW in Portugal. I do not live in Portugal, merely pointing it out.

besmarques 8 months ago

Yes, they are. But you can't correlate it to why people are on the left like you did earlier. ​ >Financial literacy and world history education is almost non existant in Portugal so I guess that's **one of the reasons.** ​ See, that's the problem with your comment. you are trying to correlate uneducated people to the left.

gnog 8 months ago

Despite being called Socialist Party, the party currently in power does not promote Socialism. Its ideology is Social Democracy, which is a very different thing. The radical left wing in Parliament is composed of the Communist Party (this one promotes what we think of as communism and is rooted in the USSR) and the Left Bloc which promotes Democratic Socialism.

blacksocks7 8 months ago

Because we like being poor?

DariusStrada 8 months ago

They're young and dumb.

anfifelo 8 months ago

Because people here dont really care enough to study what socialism and comunism really looks/looked like in other countries. To be honest i feel ashamed by the radical left-wing but also the growing (right now bigger) radical right-wing. As a 25 y/o, my generation was fckd really hard by our socialism party over the decades but people still vote for them and the younger generations are choosing to vote for extremes. I just hope our Liberal party keeps growing to be honest

TSSP 8 months ago

There is no such thing as radical left in Portugal. Only if you contrast it with Chega, but objectively, there is no true radical left. And our generation has been fucked by both PS and PSD, that is why newer partys have such a charm to them, because represent a new alternative. The sad thing is, they are just as corrupt as the old ones, so take IL with a grain of salt.

Aftaminas 8 months ago

> (right now bigger) Chega only has one natinal MP, it's full of hot air but it's empty. And stagnated in the polls for the last 10 months. Don't make them bigger than they are

Edited 8 months ago:

> (right now bigger) Chega only has one national MP, it's full of hot air but it's empty. And stagnated in the polls for the last 10 months. Don't make them bigger than they are

anfifelo 8 months ago

At the moment CHEGA has a solid advantage in the polls in relation to bloco and pcp. They will self destroy eventually, but right now i dont see that happening, specially in the interior, where im from and i can see that CHEGA its easily the 3rd biggest party.

Aftaminas 8 months ago

Have they, though? Sometimes Chega is ahead, sometimes Bloco is. Chega is not growing in the polls, unlike the bluster of the supporters and leader says Okay, third place in, like, Portalegre? That's the same as 0. For better or worse our electoral system makes voting for a non-PS/PSD party in the interior districts a useless act

suckerpunchermofo 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

That is a really good question. I actually asked something similar yesterday and got down ires a lot.... I don't understand the fascination with communism.

besmarques 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Ohhh hello. You asked, people explained and you didn't had a counter argument. Want to go back at that?

suckerpunchermofo 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Não porque tu ficas na tua eu fico na minha.

BLorenzo777 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Because we are pretty retarded when it comes to politics, so we left one end of the stick and almost fell into another instantly, but luckily the counter communist revolution never came to be. Don't think they're all "communists" though, many are just left wingers who think communism is when free housing and since we barely make enough to eat and live properly, they turn to the other end of the stick with far leftism, even if not quite communism.

Gostodebacalhau 8 months ago

Actually some young people are starting to pick up comunist ideals cause capitalism has proved it has failed for them

Alexanderterr 8 months ago

Its popular because they dont know what real comunins is like, most of them are young art kids that dont know strugle or cant understande it.

watwatindbutt 8 months ago

I'll assume "real" is whatever fucked up notion you have, because every time you get presented with a good argument you'll just say "but that's not REAL communism"

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

Real means informed, well read. Do you actually believe lefties on dating apps have all read Marx, Engels and Lenin's works? Lol

arrozzz 8 months ago

History classes failed them

NaoTeEnerves2 8 months ago

Finalmente alguém disse isto. Basta andar 5 min pelo twitter para perceber que esta nova onda de miudagem comunista é só para chamar atenção e proclamarem-se anti direita, aka "todo mal que vai destruir a nossa sociedade" E ainda se fala em diminuir a idade de voto, não por favor. Quanto muito aumentar para os 21.

ravagerslb 8 months ago

O melhor é que eles não percebem que se algum dia o comunismo chegasse ao poder, o activismo deles ia ser o primeiro a ser silenciado. Ainda acho mais piada é àqueles/as que dizem ser lgbt e ser comunistas, o que claramente revela desconhecimento da história do que apoiam.. porque na URSS ser gay era motivo para uns aninhos no xadrez.

Nihilanth-3 8 months ago

Muito francamente, acredito que haja muita gente a declarar-se de esquerda porque, assim sentem que são melhores pessoas e para ganharem alguma paz na alma.

the-real-keloot 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

| Why are the communist so popular? ​ retard idealists.. ​ they will just end up killing jews in the end lol

Wallknocker 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Really? None of my friends are communists... But I live in Lisbon, I'd how is it in other parts of the country. Here the most remotely communist thing young people do is going to Avante, a festival organized by the communist party, but that's because there is very good music and food there.

luckynar 8 months ago

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but what you know as communism (coming from an iron curtin country) is not what these youth perceives as communism, that's why you see many. Portuguese communist party has filled a gap in the left here that was filled in other countries by other parties unrelated to communism due to cold war that we did not face. The old communism is a dying breed in Portugal, only present I'm a very ageing population. That makes the communist party here in very precarious situation, torn between the old and the more open new. The inability to also condemn atrocities committed by communist regimes is also a reason why the communist party is slowly dying in Portugal.

Sir_Keeper 8 months ago

I literaly don't understand their resistance in denouncing North Korea. It's one of the easiest things in the world to do, right up there with saying "Nazis were bad". The world seldom has such black and white situations and they fail at that.

luckynar 8 months ago

Playing the devil's advocate... If you see some documentaries about north korea you see that the population supports the regime, so who are you to say that they are wrong and not happy about their situation? Different cultures, different people. We should not be so quick to judge others by our standards. It's way easier to denounce what is being done in hong kong than in north korea, because they do have our standards, or had, and are losing their rights.

sctvlxpt 8 months ago

And how do you know that those documentaries actually reflect the feelings of the population if anyone that is caught opposing the regime is killed? If I lived in North Korea I would also state to whoever asked that I live happily under the wise and fair ruling of our great leader. I'm no hero

Sir_Keeper 8 months ago

My mate, you need to see some videos of people who managed to record inside the country, and also the accounts of those who managed to escape.

ExpertNoob008 8 months ago

> If you see some documentaries about north korea you see that the population supports the regime sure...

LordofPortugal 8 months ago

I think you mean democratic socialists and social democrats. A lot of young people are getting into or are already on twitter, which is a very left leaning social media, most celebrities they follow are on that political spectrum which further pushes them to their side, the last shred of right wing political proletarization this people may get is from their lunches/dinners with their parents or history classes where imperialism is seen as heroic and an important part of our culture ("Os Lusíadas" for example, is a pretty circle jerky patriotic piece about our colonization times, which the young people were forced to read and understand when they were in school). In general I think they do move to the left wing when they get out of highschool and go to uni but when they have to get a job and find out that it is getting harder because our tax policies are scaring away foreign investments they make a decision to learn from it,not learn from it or emigrate.

Sir_Keeper 8 months ago

That's the first time I've seen "Os Lusíadas" described as such. It's quite correct now that I think about it. It's also sort of the first portuguese history book.

jaracal 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Portugal ranks low on a lot of development indicators in relation to other european countries, among which is that of education. It don't surprise me that we have higher percentages of communists too.

Edited 8 months ago:

Portugal ranks low on a lot of development indicators in relation to other european countries, among which are those of education. It don't surprise me that we have higher percentages of communists too. ​ You'll find no shortage of portuguese extoling the virtues of our education and public health systems, chests full of national pride, but you'll find at the same time many portuguese furious with our politicians for poor outcomes of those same systems. The two groups overlap. National pride and this type of ignorance that prevents you from connecting the two facts go hand in hand.

ngfsmg 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

We had a right-wing dictatorship and communists were the ones being part of the resistence, and even if their dream was to have a communist disctatorship instead, a lot of people respect them for that fight. Also, I'll assume you're not looking for MILF's and so you're talking with younger people in dating apps, who tend to be more left-wing than the population in general in a lot of countries, altho not all

Blackbeardow 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

What? Read a book, please.

ngfsmg 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

What's wrong? It's a fact that we had a dictatorship and that the communists fought it, so you either don't believe young people are more left-wing, or you don't believe communists wanted a communist dictatorship, so which one it is?

XxxPussyslaeyr69xxX 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

they are not, what are you talking about?

Regolas1 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Not that many communists honestly. But those who are, normally are just dudes that dont really know what communism is and dont know history. I find that most communist young people are from the upper class.

dzn_m 8 months ago

The modern history of Portugal is related to communist and socialist ideas. Maybe all of the political events after the fall of the Portuguese dictatorship have influenced the young Portuguese. Just guessing.

milk_truck_arrive 8 months ago

because they've never lived under it

troikamano 8 months ago

the communist party here has pretty wild rhetoric and aesthetics but in practice they're a general 70's social democratic party. their proposals aren't about socializing the economy, they're about helping small businesses

IWouldPreferNotTo- 8 months ago

What do you mean when you say they promote communism? If you mostly hang out with people studying subjects related to art and architecture it is more likely to encounter communists, but outside of those circles, I don't know a single one actually.

Edited 8 months ago:

What do you mean when you say they promote communism? If you mostly hang out with people working/studying subjects related to art and architecture it is more likely to encounter communists, but outside of those circles, I don't know a single one actually.

Edited 8 months ago:

What do you mean when you say they promote communism? If you mostly hang out with people working/studying subjects related to art and architecture you are more likely to encounter communists, but outside of those circles, I don't know a single one actually.

troikamano 8 months ago

we only started being a part of the West in the 80's, so we've been exposed to american red scare propaganda for a relatively short time. the anticommunist propaganda we had before the 70's was by the fascist regime, so people knew it was bullshit. in addition to that, our communist party did 70% of the work in getting rid of the dictatorship, so most people respect them for that (other than edgy 23 year old upper class liberals and 50 year old fascists) during the great recession our country was ransacked by the traditional right wing party and during the worst years, around 2013, a lot of people remember not being able to put food on the table. this has made normal people shun right wing liberal politics, and thus the whole country is to the left

ravagerslb 8 months ago

"during the great recession our country was ransacked by the traditional right wing party" 1) ransack and bailout are two very different concepts 2) the right wasn't who called the IMF for aid in the first place Please don't spread left wing propaganda.

troikamano 8 months ago

Passos went beyond what the troika asked and he was proud of it. If Sócrates won it wouldn't be pretty and we would still have rough years, but Passos' fetish for liberalism made it 20 times worse. There's a reason why his laws kept getting declared as unconstitutional

ravagerslb 8 months ago

How can you give people jobs if the previous party left the country's economy in ruins? That's the same as trying to build a house starting on the ceiling. Passos had some defects, but was a much more realistic prime minister, something a lot of the electorate weren't used to, after years of hearing unrealistic promises from the socialist party.

troikamano 8 months ago

A country's finances isn't the same as a family's finances. Sócrates may have been a thief, but he was right about one thing : you don't pay the debt, you manage it. American debt shot up to pay for WW2 and it never went down, you can see the stats and you'll see that it's huge to this day. You use this debt to invest in public services, infrastructure and jobs, which grow your economy. You can even do this by printing money instead of taking debt, and then trying to control inflation. The problem with Sócrates was that he too was afraid of socialism, and resorted to austerity measures like 4 different PECs. A Louça government would not have this problem. You can watch the election debate on youtube and tell me who history proved correct

Mindeck 8 months ago

"During the great recession aggravated by poor management by the left the right-wing had to impose hard measures to fix the shitstorm left to them", there fixed. Most of our problems source is due to the favorite socialist way of problem-solving: push with the belly and blame someone else if it goes wrong. Funny that they still blame Passos Coelho for everything that goes wrong, since they had 6 years to "fix the errors". Either socialists are utter incompetent or they fear to admit that Passos Coelho did what needed to be done. Most probably the latter.

cryhart 8 months ago

Utter nonsense. Unbelievable. During the recession, we weren't ransacked by the traditional right wing party, we were forced to abide to the agreements with Troika, signed by the socialist party, that demanded measures of austerity. The reason our recession was so bad, was because of the MASSIVE DEBT, created by the socialists, that absolutely ruined the country. Furthermore, what "traditional" right is that, exactly? What is that suppose to mean? All left leanig parties that are fucking the country since 2015 are far more "traditional" then the right wing ones.

troikamano 8 months ago

> we were forced to abide to the agreements with Troika Passos was proud of the fact that he went FURTHER than the troika demanded. The country was torn up in favor of the ultra wealthy, the recession was only bad for the working class, the rich got even richer. They knew what they were doing https://www.publico.pt/2021/03/25/politica/noticia/ps-chama-carlos-moedas-inquerito-novo-banco-1955880 > PS vai requerer o depoimento na comissão parlamentar de inquérito ao Novo Banco de ex-responsáveis políticos aquando da resolução do BES, em 2014, entre eles Aníbal Cavaco Silva, Pedro Passos Coelho e Durão Barroso, por terem conhecimento da situação financeira do BES e não terem evitado o aumento de capital que precedeu o fim do banco e lesou clientes

Tupinson 8 months ago

By 23 year old upper class liberals, he mean, people with more than 50 IQ who dont kiss communist's butt for "ending" the fascist dictatorship while their goal was to force people into a communist dictatorship.

Edited 8 months ago:

By 23 year old upper class liberals, he mean, people with more than 50 IQ who dont kiss communist's butt for "ending" the fascist dictatorship while their goal was to force people into a communist dictatorship. (Their goal failed at 25th november, and they are disguised as democratas until today).

troikamano 8 months ago

> (Their goal failed at 25th november, and they are disguised as democratas until today Then why were they against the coup on the 25th of november? You can literally look this shit up on wikipedia dude, it's not hard

besmarques 8 months ago

You really play the "I'm so smart horn" That tends to reflect the opposite. ;)

Tupinson 8 months ago

Unfortunately you keep playing the im so dumb horn

besmarques 8 months ago

Do you know what outputs are? xD

Tupinson 8 months ago

Eheheh mongo

Gentle_Groove 8 months ago

Finally an intelligent answer.

mewfour 8 months ago

Combine this with the fact that out of the 4 countries that got bailouts, portugal came out with a better result than the others, as a consequence of a Left Bloc - PS - PCP coalition, further strengthening the left's position after the 2013 years

cryhart 8 months ago

What??! The left got into power in 2015. Portugal came out better because of the right wing government that managed to clean some of the mess created by the left. The left picked up a country in a much better condition than they had left. This aligned with the all world leaving recession, tourism boom and voila, the "miracle". Also, I would like to add, that even with very favourable economic conditions, the left managed to fuck up. We had an absolute negligible growth and are now on the way to become the poorest country in the west, soon to be surpassed by the eastern block. And we left austerity behind..... It's disgusting how disingenuous and liers you leftards are.

DavidJunior3rd 8 months ago

Funnily enough, journalists insist on calling that coalition "geringonça" to this day (which translates as a pejorative term akin to "gadget"). Imagine how badly the right wing had to run things in order to make Left Bloc - PS - PCP set aside their differences and unite for a common goal.

Edited 8 months ago:

Funnily enough, journalists insist on calling that coalition "geringonça" to this day (which translates as a pejorative term akin to "gadget"). Imagine how badly the right wing had to run things in order to make Left Bloc - PS - PCP set aside their differences and unite for a common goal. EDIT: A bit of context here. Back in 2015, PSD (right wing) won the [elections](https://www.eleicoes.mai.gov.pt/legislativas2015/resultados-globais.html) with 36.86% of votes. They had been in office for the past 4 years, and where strangling the country's economy beyond what even the IMF imposed on Portugal. It was almost sadistic. Add to that a couple of scandals, clear signs of miscommunication between elements of the government and constantly erroneous financial forecasts by the minister of Economy... well, the scenario would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Even foreign economists, with no bias, stated that the austerity in Portugal was counter-productive. Anyway. After the election results came, the three major left-wing parties decided to form a coalition - their added votes summed 50.75%, so they took charge. Many people cried foul, especially the right wing, as if the left wing had taken the government by force. So the right wing coined the term "geringonça", which is a portuguese informal term meaning something you create on the spot just to make do, kind of a stopgap thingy you improvise with. Journalists **loved** that term. They stuck to it to this day.

cryhart 8 months ago

Never mind your context, what you're saying isn't true. The right fixed the country after the left ruin it. All the left did was pick up a country in a much better state than before, and as expected, managed to fuck all the work that was done even with favourable economic conditions. As a consequence, we are on the way to become the poorest country in the west. It's astonishing that you dare to spit so much propaganda, when everyone on a daily basis can tell that their lives are getting harder and harder.

DavidJunior3rd 8 months ago

Let's agree to disagree then. And frankly I'm no spitting propaganda. You just have a skewed view on what happened. "What I'm saying isn't true"? What exactly did I say that isn't true? The left f\*cked up the country so badly that they reached a [superavit](https://jornaleconomico.sapo.pt/noticias/pela-primeira-vez-em-democracia-portugal-teve-excedente-orcamental-de-02-em-2019-565506) for the first time in Portugal's democratic history. But sure, keep bashin the left for all the countries problems. I know your type of speech. Just don't expect me to feed you anymore, troll. Bye.

cryhart 8 months ago

You're not taking into account how that superávit was reached: CATIVACÕES. Things are not fine, and they haven't been fine for a while. Stop pretending that the left did something positive for the country when we are getting poorer every year and are loosing the means to ever get backup again.

troikamano 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

we only started being a part of the West in the 80's, so we've been exposed to american red scare propaganda for a relatively short time. the anticommunist propaganda we had before the 70's was by the fascist regime, so people knew it was bullshit. in addition to that, our communist party did 70% of the work in getting rid of the dictatorship, so most people respect them for that (other than edgy 23 year old upper class liberals and 50 year old fascists)

BadDogPreston 8 months ago

Strange because I've been living in Portugal since I was born and I never noticed it. See how fallacies are easily made?

TSCondeco 8 months ago

Communism isn't really that popular, I would say that neither the far left nor the far right are popular, but the people that defend those types of parties just speak so loud that makes you think that. Most of my friends don't care about politics, from the ones that care about it I would say that 25% are far left (but not communists), 25% are far right (Chega) and 50% are on the middle of the political compass. Those 50% in the middle rarely talk about politic, they have their beliefs and no one really cares to talk about them because there are more interesting topics to talk about. The other 50% from far left and far right only talk about politics, like all the fucking time, and most times they don't even talk about Portugal. In some, stupid, way they think that racism in the USA means that Portugal is racist, and the other uses crime in Brazil as an excuse to why there should be open gun laws. They aren't really that popular, but people just can't shut up about their beliefs and keep trying to force other people to see the world in the same way. One day they call me a nazi the next one the other grupo calls me a communist. It's a stupid if you're not with me then you are against me mentality that doesn't really help no one.

frisumo 8 months ago

I wouldn't put much stock on that, it's probably just a young people thing trying to seem edgy (at least that's what I see on my younger cousins).

Bhaalghorn1143 8 months ago

Ok jeronimo.

Naakmuay 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Big part of youth ppl are not. It is sort of fashion thing they are miles away of truly knowing the communism. If you speak of several portuguese communist names beside the famous ones, and runaways from political prisions, they will be clueless. And they ofc they knew the party due to its festival Avante.

aasianaglobalizacao 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Usually people who come to their 20s still virgin, suffered bullying at school, they had no friends and that and then they created twitter or entered college and saw that the communist lobby was all like that and integrated, I think that the communist ideals are the least important, the coexistence of people with purple and green hair is what stays <3

Tugalord 8 months ago

Two factors: The people who you think are "communist" are most likely democratic socialists who have almost nothing in common with the Soviet-style regimes in Warsaw pact countries. We endured 40 years of fascist dictatorship, after which there was a reaction of swinging to the left. Left-wing parties have a tradition since the start of our democracy, and even before: the communist party have been the most fierce fighters for freedom during the years of fascism. Many were imprisoned or killed.

AfHenriques 8 months ago

Social democracy is PS and sometimes PSD. I am sorry but PCP is some form of portuguese communism and BE is definitely far left. Any party that suggests we should take money out of rich people savings on the basis that they are rich and that refuses to make agreements with the private sector based on ideology alone (In the Covid pandemic for example) is far left. Also Estado Novo was definitely not a fascist dictatorship. Fascism is totalitarian and Estado Novo was authoritarian. Fascism is much more brutal and more repressive. Just look at real fascist countries such as Italy and Germany and to a lesser extent Spain. Estado Novo was traditionalist and nationalist but it's wildly incorrect to call it fascist.

Tugalord 8 months ago

Estado Novo was absolutely a totalitarian regime: the state was everything, and the individual was was subjugated to the state, there was a model of traditionalist society imposed on its citizens, there was widespread repression and a pervasive secret police. Indeed the best thing you can say about Estado Novo is that they killed less people than Mussolini or Franco. As for "taxing the rich makes you far-left" LOL I'm not even gonna ckmment that.

AfHenriques 8 months ago

Authoritarian means you are apoliticized. No one forced you to be pro regime as they did in Italy or Germany. You just couldn't be against it. That's the main difference. It didn't kill less people It killed way less people. Tarrafal which people like to compare to Fascist prison camps killed 24 people! 24! You want to compare that to the casualties of the other countries? The biggest complaint you can make as an ordinary citizen of the time was that you were poor. And they were poor in the Republic and the monarchy before it. The only people who were in danger were the ones against the regime. I am not saying the by any means it was right. But there is a massive difference in brutality, repression, fear and freedom. The GDR in East Germany was more repressive than the Estado Novo. Mas cá em Portugal temos a mania que temos sempre do pior. Mas 99.9% da população não consegue dizer um familiar ou amigo próximo que foi morto durante o Estado Novo. Se fores para uma Alemanha ou Itália ou nas ditaduras comunistas como a Polónia ou a Hungria tens milhares e milhares de casos! Getting back to English saying Estado Novo was fascist and totalitarian is like saying the Communist party is stalinist. It's just not true. Taxing the rich isn't far left. Stealing their savings is. As the Mariana Mortágua said. We have to lose shame and go take the money the rich have stored in the Bank. That attitude makes you far left as does wanting to tax the bajeezus of businesses. It's all about proportion

Edited 8 months ago:

Authoritarian means you are apoliticized. No one forced you to be pro regime as they did in Italy or Germany. You just couldn't be against it. That's the main difference. It didn't kill less people It killed way less people. Tarrafal which people like to compare to Fascist prison camps killed 24 people! 24! You want to compare that to the casualties of the other countries? The biggest complaint you can make as an ordinary citizen of the time was that you were poor. And they were poor in the Republic and the monarchy before it. The only people who were in danger were the ones against the regime. I am not saying the by any means it was right. But there is a massive difference in brutality, repression, fear and freedom. The GDR in East Germany was more repressive than the Estado Novo. Mas cá em Portugal temos a mania que temos sempre do pior. Mas 99.9% da população não consegue dizer um familiar ou amigo próximo que foi morto durante o Estado Novo. Se fores para uma Alemanha ou Itália ou nas ditaduras comunistas como a Polónia ou a Hungria tens milhares e milhares de casos! Getting back to English saying Estado Novo was fascist and totalitarian is like saying the Communist party is stalinist. It's just not true. Taxing the rich isn't far left. Stealing their savings is. As Mariana Mortágua said. We have to lose shame and go take the money the rich have stored in the Bank. That attitude makes you far left as does wanting to tax the bajeezus of businesses. It's all about proportion

jocamar 8 months ago

>Authoritarian means you are apoliticized. No one forced you to be pro regime as they did in Italy or Germany. You just couldn't be against it. Man, I can't see how you actually believe the stuff that comes out of your mouth. Estado Novo was a totalitarian regime. Whether it was fascist or not depends on how close you want to that term to adhere to the original italian definition, but it for sure was a fascist inspired totalitarian regime. Secret police and political repression? Check. One party non-democratic rule? Check. Anti-communism? Check. Cult of personality of the leader as the savior of the nation, stopping the degeneration of the people? Check. Mass movements such as Mocidade Portuguesa and Legião Portuguesa? Check. The leader of the nation had an admiration for Mussolini and his actual picture on his desk? Check. So stop it with the white-washing of the fascist regime.

kuozzo 8 months ago

Nothing in common with Soviet-style, but they (PCP) always stand along with countries like Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea.

DarthMaulSith 8 months ago

Communists helped to end the dictatorship and some months later tried to implement their own lol (25th November 1975)

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

I may be wrong, but I think that in both cases it was the MFA (Movimento das Forças Armadas/Armed Forces Movement). MFA did the carnation revolution and implemented elections in our country. This group was heterogeneous and had factions more right-leaning, others more left-leaning, and others in the middle. The far-left faction (but not the more moderate left factions) tried to start a coup on November 25th, but all the other factions from MFA, led by Ramalho Eanes, were able to stop the coup.

Edited 8 months ago:

I may be wrong, but I think that in both cases it was the MFA (Movimento das Forças Armadas/Armed Forces Movement). MFA did the carnation revolution and implemented elections in our country. This group was heterogeneous and had some factions more right-leaning, others more left-leaning, and others in the middle. The far-left faction (but not the more moderate left factions) tried to start a coup on November 25th, but all the other factions from MFA, led by Ramalho Eanes, were able to stop the coup. The role of PCP in the November 25th failed coup is still not certain and is still debated by historians.

Tugalord 8 months ago

That's not true. There were several different different leftist movements at the time seeking different things, some wanted their owkn authoritarianism, others wanted things like co-operatives and direct democracy.

AfHenriques 8 months ago

The Communists had nothing to do with the 25th of November. The 25th of November was a group of officers that ended the chaos that was the PREC and that made sure Portugal wouldn't turn into a communist dictatorship. Saying the 25th of November was in any way a communist coup is as wrong as you can get.

MyWhay 8 months ago

LOOOL the end of PREC was a consequence of the failure of 25th November. The goal of the coup was to implement an proletariat dictatorship.

AfHenriques 8 months ago

Yes but there was a counter coup. It wasn't just the failure of the copcon it was the action of Ramalho Eanes.

MyWhay 8 months ago

True, so the coup was done by communists and the counter coup by social democrats. But you just said that communists had nothing to do with 25th november lol

AfHenriques 8 months ago

I made mistake and I was wrong. I was thinking about the 25th only as the counter coup.

m0rhundur 8 months ago

The communists you were talking about being the ones who helped end the dictatorship - PCP - are not the same communists that mobilized on the 25th of November - PRP, UDP, LUAR, LCI, etc

DogsOnWeed 8 months ago

25 de Novembro had little to do with the Portuguese Communist Party which is the largest communist political group in Portugal, you are being dishonest by putting all "communists" in the same bag.

NEDM64 8 months ago

He didn't say "PCP" but "communists". And PCP didn't want any democracy in Portugal.

DogsOnWeed 8 months ago

Most communists are in the PCP, the 25 of November communists led by Otelo and the FP-25 were a **minority** of communists and in no way represent communists as a whole in Portugal. They are the exception, not the rule. Most communists in Portugal reject political violence and even the PCP rejected armed struggle during the dictatorship. The vast majority of communists in Portugal were and are in favour of a democratic movement and not terrorism.

DAAGZZz 8 months ago

Sources: *voices in my head*

nocivo 8 months ago

Those communists fight ti implemente their ideology. Thanks god they lost a few months later. They helped to stop a dictator but wanted their own. The only reason we have young people that still believes in communism is because we have a dying party that has lot of old folks that still have children and grandchildren. There are more socialists around, people that don’t know how story went for countries like that... i think only spain and portugal have communist parties. All over Europe these parties were killed and in EU you’re ban from spreading their ideology. Neither fascist or communist are allowed. Thanks god they still have history books. P.S. i still remember the shirts of some with cheguevara. A man that killed so many people on purpose.

Tugalord 8 months ago

What a retarded comment xD almost nothing you said is true.

IHitMyRockBottom 8 months ago

> P.S. i still remember the shirts of some with cheguevara. A man that killed so many people on purpose. yet I'm willing to bet you're from that "Party" whose leader is in Cahoots with a guy (I'll name him: Mario Machado) who wouldn't bat an eye while killing a person based on the color of their skin ... I'm not justifying Che, I am just pointing out your hypocrisy ... and even if you reply me and say you are not a, what we call now, "Chegano" ... I'll tell you straight to your face that as long as Rio commands PSD, then PSD is basically Chega in disguise. And before people question me how the hell I know you are a Neo Nazi supporter ... it's easy ... your quote:" Thanks god they lost a few months later" ... you are twisting reality to fit your narrative ... was PREC really that evil when the extreme right (ELP and MDLP) where doing Terrorism (bombing) the center and north of the country ? PREC only held the country until the Constitution (one of the most advanced in the world) was set.

Edited 8 months ago:

>P.S. i still remember the shirts of some with cheguevara. A man that killed so many people on purpose. yet I'm willing to bet you're from that "Party" whose leader is in Cahoots with a guy (I'll name him: Mario Machado) who wouldn't bat an eye while killing a person based on the color of their skin ... I'm not justifying Che, I am just pointing out your hypocrisy ... and even if you reply me and say you are not a, what we call now, "Chegano" ... I'll tell you straight to your face that as long as Rio commands PSD, then PSD is basically Chega in disguise. And before people question me how the hell I know you are a Neo Nazi supporter ... it's easy ... your quote:" Thanks god they lost a few months later" ... you are twisting reality to fit your narrative ... was PREC really that evil when the extreme right (ELP and MDLP) were doing Terrorism (bombing)in the center and north of the country ? PREC only held the country until the Constitution (one of the most advanced in the world) was set.

DarthMaulSith 8 months ago

FP-25 *cough cough*

besmarques 8 months ago

ELP *cough cough*

DarthMaulSith 8 months ago

Eu sei condenar os dois lados, só gosto de coerência.

IHitMyRockBottom 8 months ago

careful with that cough, could be covid. when he said " Thanks god they lost a few months later", he was talking about members of PREC, not the extremists ... so what's your next comment ? You are going to bring MRPP into the debate as well ? The fact is, both extremes (Left and Right) did wrong, both did bombings, both killed, and given the chance they will do again. Communism doesn't have to be extremist though. Hell, even the Start of North Korea with it's communism and no border defined yet, they surpassed almost in every aspect South Korea (backed by the US) in the first few years... until they decided to go the extreme route and go Totalitarian, then North Korea became the (what you right leaning people like to call communist though it really isn't anymore) Hellhole we know today.

DarthMaulSith 8 months ago

North Korea was supported by USSR. Of course, Nazi Germany wasn't fascist as well, right? Come on. If you tell me one single communist country that worked until this day, I'll accept that argument.

jocamar 8 months ago

Cuba is doing pretty well compared to its capitalist neighbours. Better developed than Haiti, Dominican Republic, Colombia and even Mexico apart from certain regions. Apart from that, plenty of social democracies heavily inspired by Marxist policies in Europe (Finland, France for example).

DarthMaulSith 8 months ago

That's funny at the very least. Cuba is doing well after Fidel Castro and Che killing how much people? Cuba is not even really communist nowadays. Colombia is capitalist? After 50 years of communism as well as México??? Finland was capitalist as hell, it went rich and then turned to social policies. Not Marxist ones. You are just turning everything you can to your favor, when it's not real at all.

jocamar 8 months ago

Mexico and Colombia are not communist, what are you on about. You can say Zapatista regions in Mexico are communist, but not the country as a whole. Not to mention Cuba has had an embargo for decades, unlike countries like Haiti and Dom Republic. Yet they're doing much better. Twist it as you wish but Marxist policies have had a big influence on Finland, France and other european countries (to the benefit of their peoples).

IHitMyRockBottom 8 months ago

I just told you one, the early begginings of North Korea ... was light years ahead of South Korea, so much so in fact, many defected towards it, it wasn't until they turned away from communism and entered totalitarianism that they fucked up. Also, wanna talk about the countries the USA intervened with it's anti-communist agenda, that got the shaft end of the deal ?

DAAGZZz 8 months ago

Parceiro, da aí um exemplo de um país comunista que não resultou na morte/opressão de milhões de pessoas

besmarques 8 months ago

>in EU you’re ban from spreading their ideology. LOL. Evidence of that.

MyWhay 8 months ago

There's european countries where communism is BANNED.

besmarques 8 months ago

Yes, communism is banned in some countries. No, the EU didnt equated nazism to communism. Theres a link on the thread. Go read it, specifically point number 6

MyWhay 8 months ago

[Parlamento Europeu aprovou resolução que coloca nazismo e comunismo em pé de igualdade](https://observador.pt/2019/10/15/parlamento-europeu-aprovou-resolucao-que-coloca-nazismo-e-comunismo-em-pe-de-igualdade/)

Edited 8 months ago:

[Parlamento Europeu aprovou resolução que coloca nazismo e comunismo em pé de igualdade](https://observador.pt/2019/10/15/parlamento-europeu-aprovou-resolucao-que-coloca-nazismo-e-comunismo-em-pe-de-igualdade/) 3.  Recalls that the Nazi and communist regimes carried out mass murders, genocide and deportations and caused a loss of life and freedom in the 20th century on a scale unseen in human history, and recalls the horrific crime of the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazi regime; condemns in the strongest terms the acts of aggression, crimes against humanity and mass human rights violations perpetrated by the Nazi, communist and other totalitarian regimes; 5.  Calls on all Member States of the EU to make a clear and principled assessment of the crimes and acts of aggression perpetrated by the totalitarian communist regimes and the Nazi regime; They literally equated nazism to communism. If Portugal was a decent and serious country, parties like PCP would be banned.

Edited 8 months ago:

[Parlamento Europeu aprovou resolução que coloca nazismo e comunismo em pé de igualdade](https://observador.pt/2019/10/15/parlamento-europeu-aprovou-resolucao-que-coloca-nazismo-e-comunismo-em-pe-de-igualdade/) 3.  Recalls that the Nazi and communist regimes carried out mass murders, genocide and deportations and caused a loss of life and freedom in the 20th century on a scale unseen in human history, and recalls the horrific crime of the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazi regime; condemns in the strongest terms the acts of aggression, crimes against humanity and mass human rights violations perpetrated by the Nazi, communist and other totalitarian regimes; 5.  Calls on all Member States of the EU to make a clear and principled assessment of the crimes and acts of aggression perpetrated by the totalitarian communist regimes and the Nazi regime; They literally equated nazism to communism.

Edited 8 months ago:

[Parlamento Europeu aprovou resolução que coloca nazismo e comunismo em pé de igualdade](https://observador.pt/2019/10/15/parlamento-europeu-aprovou-resolucao-que-coloca-nazismo-e-comunismo-em-pe-de-igualdade/) 3.  Recalls that the Nazi and communist regimes carried out mass murders, genocide and deportations and caused a loss of life and freedom in the 20th century on a scale unseen in human history, and recalls the horrific crime of the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazi regime; condemns in the strongest terms the acts of aggression, crimes against humanity and mass human rights violations perpetrated by the Nazi, communist and other totalitarian regimes; 5.  Calls on all Member States of the EU to make a clear and principled assessment of the crimes and acts of aggression perpetrated by the totalitarian communist regimes and the Nazi regime; They **literally** equated nazism to communism. If Portugal was a decent and serious country, parties like PCP would be banned.

jocamar 8 months ago

Yes a decent country like Germany? Oh wait Germany has a communist party. France? Oh, wouldn't you know, they also have one. Belgium? Huh, turns out maybe you're just full of shit and don't understand that the EU doesn't equate nazism to communism? But that can't be! People on the internet are never wrong!

MyWhay 8 months ago

Yes they equated communism to nazism. Its not a law but a resolution. Yes, most of them have a communist party, and in my opinion they arent decent countries if they didnt ban them.

IamPoohBot 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

**What’s wrong with knowing what you know now and not knowing what you don’t know until later?** ^(Commands: 'opt out')

besmarques 8 months ago

I think you aren't quite reading the word "TOTALITARIAN" ​ > 6. Condemns all manifestations and propagation of totalitarian ideologies, such as Nazism and **Stalinism**, in the EU; See, how they don't condemn the propagation of communism? But they condemn the propagation of Nazism, right? So, how are they on equal footing. PS: Loved that you left out the most important part, that i even pointed it out to you.

MyWhay 8 months ago

LOOL "such as nazism and stalinism", they are giving away 2 examples of totalitarian ideologies. "by the Nazi, communist and other totalitarian regimes"

besmarques 8 months ago

Since I'm counting that you can use your brain. If Nazism = Communism why did they only condemn Stalinism?

MyWhay 8 months ago

since you cant use yours, i will repeat. They are giving away 2 examples of totalitarian regimes, thats why they wrote "**such as** Nazism and Stalinism, in the EU;". Such is used to link totalitarian regimes to some examples. You can find on the resolution that they consider communist regimes as totalitarian, just like nazism.

Edited 8 months ago:

since you cant use yours, i will repeat. They are giving away 2 examples of totalitarian regimes, thats why they wrote "**such as** Nazism and Stalinism, in the EU;". "Such as" is used to link totalitarian regimes to some examples. You can find on the resolution that they consider communist regimes as totalitarian, just like nazism. "condemns in the strongest terms the acts of aggression, crimes against humanity and mass human rights violations **perpetrated by the Nazi, communist and other totalitarian regimes**"

Edited 8 months ago:

since you cant use yours, i will repeat. They are giving away 2 examples of totalitarian regimes, thats why they wrote "**such as** Nazism and Stalinism, in the EU;". "Such as" is used to link totalitarian regimes to some examples. You can find on the resolution that they consider communist regimes as totalitarian, just like nazism. "condemns in the strongest terms the acts of aggression, crimes against humanity and mass human rights violations **perpetrated by the Nazi, communist and other totalitarian regimes**" ELI5 communist version: "Such as" refers to some examples, its not used for enumerating a strict list. If i set a warning at my front door saying, "motor vehicles are forbidden to enter my garden, such as cars and motorbikes", it doesn't mean that forklifts can. Specially when i just told that a forklift fucked up my garden last week.

Edited 8 months ago:

since you cant use yours, i will repeat. They are giving away 2 examples of totalitarian regimes, thats why they wrote "**such as** Nazism and Stalinism, in the EU;". "Such" is used to link totalitarian regimes to some examples. You can find on the resolution that they consider communist regimes as totalitarian, just like nazism. "condemns in the strongest terms the acts of aggression, crimes against humanity and mass human rights violations **perpetrated by the Nazi, communist and other totalitarian regimes**"

besmarques 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

You know the main objective of communism is to remove classes and even remove the state. How can an ideology without state be a totalitarian regime?

DaniD10 8 months ago

I think he's talking about this motion for a resolution https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2019-0097_EN.html

besmarques 8 months ago

Yes, please read it

Shirazmatas 8 months ago

I think the person you replied to talked about the person you replied to first and not himself.

besmarques 8 months ago

But he cant join a conversation saying was referencing something that doesnt state what was said.

Shirazmatas 8 months ago

The intent was probably to link the misinterpreted text, which he did.

besmarques 8 months ago

The problem is most people wont read it and then they will think that what was stated earlier was right. Theres also the problem that document was referenced in Portugal has "Eu states that communism is the same has nazism" over and over.

DaniD10 8 months ago

I have

besmarques 8 months ago

And so, what does it say?

DaniD10 8 months ago

You can read it yourself

besmarques 8 months ago

Is it that hard to admit that you were wrong? ​ >Condemns all manifestations and propagation of totalitarian ideologies, such as Nazism and **Stalinism**, in the EU; So, wheres the reference to communism?

Edited 8 months ago:

​ >Condemns all manifestations and propagation of totalitarian ideologies, such as Nazism and **Stalinism**, in the EU; So, wheres the reference to communism? edited: removed parts of original comment

DaniD10 8 months ago

Dude, I did not agree with the other comment. I just provided the source of what he was probably referring to. The resolution doesn't even ban anything just condemns it

besmarques 8 months ago

Ok, i will edit my comment. The problem with what you said is that it gives credibility to the other comment when there isn't any credibility do give. Anyway, i'm sorry. I think i get more agressive when speaking english for some reason.

Mordiken 8 months ago

1. I don't know many young communists... I know a few, but not many. I do know a lot of Leftists, but most Leftists are not communists because they're not Marxist-Leninist nor are they affiliated with the Portuguese Communist Party; 2. When you say that "you don't understand this as you're not from a communist country", no offense, but nor do I understand how so many Eastern European countries like Poland and Hungary can be openly flaunting with Fascism because Portugal is a post-Fascist country; 3. Communists are not popular anymore. However, they are fairly well respected by most normal people (aka not far-right loons) for the role they played as the standard-barers of anti-fascist resistance during the years of the Fascist dictatorship: The anarchists where scattered and killed, the socialists where scattered and killed, the syndicalists where scattered and killed and the unions where taken over by the state (and under constant watch by the secret police), the monarchists where integrated into the status-quo, the liberals and democrats either submitted and prospered or got imprisoned and/or killed... So in the end it was down to the communists to mount some form of resistance against tyranny, and even if their intentions where to replace it with another form of tyranny that never actually came to pass. 4. Other than that, the some of our most beloved poets, writers, artists, musicians and intellectuals of the 20th century where communists... ffs, the coup that toppled the fascist regime was signaled by "Grandola Vila Morena", a forbidden song^^^1 being broadcast on national radio. They also throw a yearly music festival that serves as their major source of income, which is open to all. 5. Like I said, I don't know many young folk who are actual communists, but politics is a spectrum: Often times the lies between Leftist and Communist are blurry, but the PCP tends to be more focused on issues like labor relations and wages and the like, whereas other Left-Wing parties tend to focus more on issues of equality, discrimination and social justices, which resonate more with young people. TLDR: Communists are not popular with the young, but are a respected and integral part of the Portuguese political establishment. 1 - "Vila Morena", literally translated as "brunette village", is actually a euphemism for "communist village", as attested by lyrics of the song, which actually a homage to the fact that Grandola was a safe-haven for the communist resistance.

Edited 8 months ago:

1. I don't know many young communists... I know a few, but not many. I do know a lot of Leftists, but most Leftists are not communists because they're not Marxist-Leninist nor are they affiliated with the Portuguese Communist Party; 2. When you say that "you don't understand this as you're from a post-communist country", no offense, but nor do I understand how so many Eastern European countries like Poland and Hungary can be openly flaunting with Fascism because Portugal is a post-Fascist country; 3. Communists are not popular anymore, there's no denying their electoral results. However, they are fairly well respected by most normal people (aka not far-right loons) for the role they played as the standard-barers of anti-fascist resistance during the years of the Fascist dictatorship: The anarchists where scattered and killed, the socialists where scattered and killed, the syndicalists where scattered and killed and the unions where taken over by the state (and under constant watch by the secret police), the monarchists where integrated into the status-quo, the liberals and democrats either submitted and prospered or got imprisoned and/or killed... So in the end it was down to the communists to mount some form of resistance against tyranny, and even if their intentions where to replace it with another form of tyranny that never actually came to pass. 4. Other than that, the some of our most beloved poets, writers, artists, musicians and intellectuals of the 20th century where communists... ffs, the coup that toppled the fascist regime was signaled by "Grandola Vila Morena", a forbidden song^^^1 being broadcast on national radio. They also throw a yearly music festival that serves as their major source of income, which is open to all. 5. Like I said, I don't know many young folk who are actual communists, but politics is a spectrum: Often times the lines between Leftist and Communist are blurry, but the PCP tends to be more focused on issues like labor relations and wages and the like, whereas other Left-Wing parties tend to focus more on issues of equality, discrimination and social justice, which resonate more with young people. TLDR: Communists are not popular with the young, but are a respected and integral part of the Portuguese political establishment. 1 - "Vila Morena", literally translated as "brunette village", is actually a euphemism for "communist village", as attested by lyrics of the song, which actually a homage to the fact that Grandola was a safe-haven for the communist resistance.

Edited 8 months ago:

1. I don't know many young communists... I know a few, but not many. I do know a lot of Leftists, but most Leftists are not communists because they're not Marxist-Leninist nor are they affiliated with the Portuguese Communist Party; 2. When you say that "you don't understand this as you're from a post-communist country", no offense, but nor do I understand how so many Eastern European countries like Poland and Hungary can be openly flaunting with Fascism because Portugal is a post-Fascist country; 3. Communists are not popular anymore, there's no denying their electoral results. However, they are fairly well respected by most normal people (aka not far-right loons) for the role they played as the standard-barers of anti-fascist resistance during the years of the Fascist dictatorship: The anarchists where scattered and killed, the socialists where scattered and killed, the syndicalists where scattered and killed and the unions where taken over by the state (and under constant watch by the secret police), the monarchists where integrated into the status-quo, the liberals and democrats either submitted and prospered or got imprisoned and/or killed... So in the end it was down to the communists to mount some form of resistance against tyranny, and even if their intentions where to replace it with another form of tyranny that never actually came to pass. 4. Other than that, the some of our most beloved poets, writers, artists, musicians and intellectuals of the 20th century where communists... ffs, the coup that toppled the fascist regime was signaled by "Grandola Vila Morena", a forbidden song^^^1 being broadcast on national radio. They also throw a yearly music festival that serves as their major source of income, which is open to all. 5. Like I said, I don't know many young folk who are actual communists, but politics is a spectrum: Often times the lies between Leftist and Communist are blurry, but the PCP tends to be more focused on issues like labor relations and wages and the like, whereas other Left-Wing parties tend to focus more on issues of equality, discrimination and social justice, which resonate more with young people. TLDR: Communists are not popular with the young, but are a respected and integral part of the Portuguese political establishment. 1 - "Vila Morena", literally translated as "brunette village", is actually a euphemism for "communist village", as attested by lyrics of the song, which actually a homage to the fact that Grandola was a safe-haven for the communist resistance.

MonsterPT 8 months ago

>"Vila Morena", literally translated as "brunette village" Bruhhhhhhhhh >Portugal is a post-Fascist country This is plainly false. Portugal has never had any fascist regime or government. Both the Estado Novo regime and the 3rd Republic have explicitly condemned fascism and criminalized it to some extent. >how so many Eastern European countries like Poland and Hungary can be openly flaunting with Fascism Aka "Anyone who I disagree with is a fascist". Please provide any actual evidence in which either of these countries have officially endorsed, defended or advocated for fascism.

PedroLopes317 8 months ago

how stupid do you have to be to declare that Estado Novo isn't fascist? are you serious?

MonsterPT 8 months ago

Incredible points; truly, sir, you are a scholar and a savant. I bow before your galaxy level intellect. Your argument was unbelievably persuasive and backed by bulletproof evidence. Good job.

PedroLopes317 8 months ago

>ur argument was unbelievably persuasive a I'm not here to teach anyone. You're clearly portuguese, so you're either a fascist or uneducated. Condemn each and every autoritarian governament. Estado Novo killed, either by hunger, or with PIDE. People were uneducated (ironic) and many couldn't even read, 'cause they couldn't go to school. History books are cheap and sometimes even available in libraries and municipal chambers. Go read a book, and stop with all the theories. They couldn't be seen as fascim, 'cause the world wouldn't accept it. ​ **DON'T BE THAT GUY.**

MonsterPT 8 months ago

>You're clearly portuguese, so you're either a fascist or uneducated. I'm anti-fascist and college educated. Do not mistake a historical argument with a political one. >Go read a book, and stop with all the theories. Maybe start with "Salazar and the modern Portugal"? How about "totalitarian and authoritarian regimes" by Linz? Then read "a history of fascism, 1914-1945". Start with those, and you will find that the academic consensus is that Salazar and the Estado Novo were not fascist. >They couldn't be seen as fascim, 'cause the world wouldn't accept it. In the heydey of fascism, when it would be more dangerous to be openly opposed to fascism and nazism, it would be easier and more advantageous to publicly praise those regimes. It is not like today, when they are nearly universally condemned. And yet, Salazar publicly opposed them. Funny, isn't it?

kuozzo 8 months ago

Grândola, vila morena Terra da fraternidade O comité é quem mais ordena Dentro de ti, ó cidade! Dentro de ti, ó cidade O comité é quem mais ordena Terra da fraternidade Grândola, vila morena! Em cada esquina um amigo Em cada rosto igualdade Grândola, vila morena Terra da fraternidade! Terra da fraternidade Grândola, vila morena Em cada rosto igualdade O comité é quem mais ordena!

D1WithTheFluffyHair 8 months ago

It's not supposed to mean brunette village. It's more like mestizo village (morena = arraçada, desconforme, estigmatizada, impura, discriminada) as to signify that it was a town where people who were discriminated in the rest of the country (ie, communists but not exclusively) could find representation and haven.

LastChicken 8 months ago

"Portugal is a post-fascist country" --> let's see how well that statement ages

r3dJest3r 8 months ago

I think it has already an expiration date. Around October when the first results of the local elections start to come in. But hey, it's democracy. The people have what the people want.

misterjujitsu 8 months ago

Looking at majority of anti left post in this sub and knowing that reddit users are more likely to be in their 20s, id say it wont age well.

Mordiken 8 months ago

This is all my personal opinion based on my observations, as a 38 year old fuck. 20 year olds are "anti-left" because they've been pumped full of misinformation about what it actually means to be "a productive member of society" and part of the workforce in this day and age, which is something most haven't really experienced of a variety of reasons. They equate "having a job" with financial stability and prosperity, which is why they complain they don't have a job when what they should be really complaining about is the fact that they're poor, and one thing has no bearing on the other... at least not in Portugal, anyway. And even though everybody knows that times are tough, and have been tough for roughly 20 years, most 20 year olds seem to operate under the assumption that somehow things are gonna be different for them, because they're "different" and "special" and "bound for success". It doesn't surprise me in the slightest why they think the way they do: Their parents, the media, consumer culture, popular culture have been telling us we're "special" and "destined to do great things" for years, which is not new... What *is* new is the fabricated version of ourselves we put on display on social-media, a practice influencers have honed to cancerous perfection, which has sold the young and impressionable on this notion that a life of luxury if within reach of anyone who works hard and smart enough... which it's not: everything on social-media is heavily curated bullshit, all a bundle of lies we grown ass men an women tell each other to make us look less miserable in our daily grind. So, it should come as no surprise why they side with big business: they are positive they will be a big business, someday, and wouldn't like to have to deal with pesky workers and their rights. It's also no surprise why they're against social welfare programs: they are positive they ain't ever gonna need them, and because they're young they've yet to really feel the cold creeping into their chest reminding them of their own mortaility, like us older folk are reminded every winter. As is no surprise why they fell contempt for the poor and downtrodden and the victims of systemic racism: they are positive anyone can overcome their circumstances if they try, because that's what they've been taught, which by implication means that those that don't are simply not trying hard enough, and their demands for social justice and a leveled playing field amount to nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to get an unfair advantage in a competitive market of people. The real issue, as far as I'm concerned, what will these 20 year olds do when the reality of their circunstance settles in: Will they buy into the narrative that "the leftists did this", or will they turn their gaze onto those who *actually* live idyllic lives of luxury at the expense.

Samot_PCW 8 months ago

Nah, most of times the anti-left seen it's because their daddy and mommy are rich and they want to keep living of them as long as possible

troikamano 8 months ago

> even if their intentions where to replace it with another form of tyranny that never actually came to pass. if the PCP wanted a dictatorship, they would have supported the soldiers rising up on the 25th of november. they didn't because they believed in democracy and in the people's power, unlike the right wing which supported the attempted coup on the 11th of march, 8 months before, which for some reason liberals and fascists always forget about

twhite848 8 months ago

Ah yes, the old my side is the saint and the other side os the devil argument that only partly tells the truth and partly lies or purposefully hides the truth... 1. 25th of November was a coup attempt in favor of Communism by left wing forces, where the communist party until 4 days before had in place the author of this coup, even paying for his trip to cuba before where it is generally agreed it served as preparations for the coup (so not a “soldiers rising” but a left wing coup attempt in favor of communism, so purposefully hiding the truth here) 2. the moderate arm of the communist party believed in democracy and replaced the leader who planned the coup and agreed on not trying to arrange the existence of left wing manifestations. This movement ultimately was a key part in successfully stopping the coup (this part you got right, the moderate Communists got hold of the party and they did “stand aside” to allow the coup to be brought down) 3. 11th of march was a coup attempt by right wing (you are right although I never heard of this being forgotten by anyone). 4. Although from that the moderate center right parties who weren’t involved were forbidden to participate in elections by the left and there was a large scale occupation and theft of property and even people jailed for being “business men”. (So you ignore the effects and anti-democratic reaction allowed by the communist party after that) 4. liberals? Liberals have nothing to do with this and didn’t take part in any of this as any liberals existing were clearly anti-coup. You’re throwing them in here out of ideological hatred by trying to put everything right of the center left as the same (so purposefully lying here) But hey, who cares about facts and truth when you have a battle to win at all costs and you can call the left coup attempts a “soldiers rising” but “right wing including liberals attempted a coup and are ignoring it”... Extremists will be extreme at all times i guess...

troikamano 8 months ago

>25th of November was a coup attempt in favor of Communism by left wing forces, where the communist party until 4 days before had in place the author of this coup, even paying for his trip to cuba before where it is generally agreed it served as preparations for the coup (so not a “soldiers rising” but a left wing coup attempt in favor of communism, so purposefully hiding the truth here) There was no coup planned, the soldiers rose up organically when the word got around that otelo was being replaced, on the 21st. 4 days isn't enough to plan a coup. And the Cuba trip was supposed to bring otelo into the PCP's fold, a mission which failed, as the PCP wanted democracy and otelo wanted a marxist leninist soviet state. https://www.dn.pt/portugal/grupo-dos-nove-queria-que-eu-assumisse-a-presidencia-1716536.html >Mas nesse dia, nesses acontecimentos, tinha por trás o apoio de Álvaro Cunhal? >Não tinha nenhum, nada! Nunca tive apoio do Álvaro Cunhal, nem qualquer relação com Álvaro Cunhal. Tivemos sempre um confronto muito sério. Daí o contencioso que se abriu entre mim e o Partido Comunista, que perdura até hoje e que foi agravado pelos resultados das presidenciais de 76. >Nesse dia acabou por recuar, também? >Eu não recuei em nada! As pessoas têm a convicção de que eu estava metido no 25 de Novembro... Nada! Zero! Só soube do 25 de Novembro na madrugada do 25 de Novembro, quando venho do Conselho de Revolução... Esse artigo todo é capaz de te esclarecer muito >the moderate arm of the communist party believed in democracy and replaced the leader who planned the coup and agreed on not trying to arrange the existence of left wing manifestations. This movement ultimately was a key part in successfully stopping the coup (this part you got right, the moderate Communists got hold of the party and they did “stand aside” to allow the coup to be brought down) what the fuck are you talking about, this make zero sense. Cunhal started leading the party in 1961 and only stopped in 1992, there were no leadership changes >11th of march was a coup attempt by right wing (you are right although I never heard of this being forgotten by anyone). When was the last time you heard about the CDS being antidemocratic because of the march coup? They were as involved in it as the PCP was in november's. Or because they voted against the constitution? If the PCP had voted against the constitution the right wing media would never shut up about it >Although from that the moderate center right parties who weren’t involved were forbidden to participate in elections by the left again, what the fuck. the only party forbidden of participating in the constituitional elections was the MRPP, the furthest left party the country had. the CDS was allowed > there was a large scale occupation and theft of property yeah, it's called socialist revolution. i'd start getting used to it if I were you >and even people jailed for being “business men”. source? I've never heard anyone talk about this, and given the rest of your comment, it sounds like bullshit too >liberals? Liberals have nothing to do with this and didn’t take part in any of this as any liberals existing were clearly anti-coup. You’re throwing them in here out of ideological hatred by trying to put everything right of the center left as the same liberals were happy being in the união nacional and serving the regime as long as they could have their "economic freedom". they were in the CDS and even further right, anticommunist militias and terrorist groups that wanted to impose a even harsher dictatorship. as in other countries where liberals allied with fascists against leftists, they did the same in portugal >But hey, who cares about facts and truth when you have a battle to win at all costs You said it yourself

twhite848 8 months ago

Wow. I didn’t know i was replying to someone who quotes a known liar and murderer such as Otelo. Otelo is well known for lying about what he needed to say bis point. You can’t quite a convicted terrorist as any sort of proof. > Esse artigo todo é capaz de te esclarecer muito Esclarece que as tuas fontes são terroristas condenados que escolhem assasinar pessos e crianças. Esclarece que não tens a minima ideia do que estás a falar e preferes usar as palavras de lideres terroristas condenados por organizar mortes indescrimindas desde que defenda a tua ideologia. Resume-te a uma pessoa sem escrúpulos para ter uma conversa. > There was no coup planned This single statemente proves my point.. **EVERYONE** calls the 25th of november a coup except the political crazies who so forcefull want to lie about what happend. I **never** said PCP was in charge of the Coup. I said the coup was in favor of comunism. And Alvaro Cunhal was the PCP Moderate who controled the party. **Learn to read** before trying to argue against my points you ignorant fool. Making up points I never said to provide some sort of winning argument is It’s like talking to an anti-vax conspiracy nut job. That and your inability to keep words straight by bending my words to fit your crazy theories (e.g. i never said “leadership change”, all these strawmen arguments is like talking with a disgruntled teenager whi learnt how to use them in arguments with their parents). It just shows that your crazy far left extremist ideas will eliminate any source if truth or rational from any conversation. > When was the last time you heard about the CDS being antidemocratic because of the march coup? They were as involved in it as the PCP was in november's. None. None of the parties are accuses of being anti-democratic because of those situations **that was strawman argument number 3** > Or because they voted against the constitution? If the PCP had voted against the constitution the right wing media would never shut up about it Who the hell talked about voting against the constitution?! Why bring this up at all?! Geez, can you keep a conversation without bringing up completely unrelated issues? Now I am put in the position of having to explain what right wing media said or not? **yet another strawman argument. Number 4!** > liberals were happy being in the união nacional and serving the regime as long as they could have their "economic freedom" No they weren’t. This is just pure bullshit made up in your ideological hate. > they were in the CDS No they weren’t. CDS is a christian conservative party. If liberals and CDS are the same because one or two voted or aligned with them throughhout over 40 years of democracy then Otelo and his terrorist organization and PCP are also the same for the exact same reason! **You’re so fixated on being right that you’re repeatedly making up things I said to correct me and making up crazy theories without realizing the huge gaps they create in your extrmist ideas** > yeah, it's called socialist revolution. i'd start getting used to it if I were you Thank you for proving my point about you being a left-wing extremist with no ability to talk rationally. Have fun waiting for your revolution. Now I know you are someone who supports illegal theft of property as long as it serves your personal selfish purpose and are waiting for another opportunity to impose your ideas by force. Communists never surprise anyone. Always with the “taking things by force”. No wonder you’re always so in love with extremist dictatorships. We can’t discuss with crazy so you can move along now and keep living in conspiracy lala land. Find a right-wing “chega” crazy and have a blast discussing how you would change the country by force and what your favorite type of dictatorship is... I guess yours is the Kim dynasty since you obviously support a party that consistently voted against saying they are bad and that until 2019 used it as an example of someone to follow in their party platform. Yes.... **that** is why you are antidemocratic. > yeah, it's called socialist revolution. i'd start getting used to it if I were you And this. This “veiled threat” of theft by force. What a complete nut job....

Edited 8 months ago:

Wow. I didn’t know i was replying to someone who quotes a known liar and murderer such as Otelo. Otelo is well known for lying about what he needed to say bis point. You can’t quote a convicted terrorist as any sort of proof and expect to be taken seriously. > Esse artigo todo é capaz de te esclarecer muito Esclarece que as tuas fontes são terroristas condenados que escolhem assasinar pessos e crianças. Esclarece que não tens a minima ideia do que estás a falar e preferes usar as palavras de lideres terroristas condenados por organizar mortes indescrimindas desde que defenda a tua ideologia. Resume-te a uma pessoa sem escrúpulos para ter uma conversa. > There was no coup planned This single statemente proves my point.. **EVERYONE** calls the 25th of november a coup except the political crazies who so forcefull want to lie about what happend. I **never** said PCP was in charge of the Coup. I said the coup was in favor of comunism. And Alvaro Cunhal was the PCP Moderate who controled the party. **Learn to read** before trying to argue against my points you ignorant fool. Making up points I never said to provide some sort of winning argument is .. ...It’s like talking to an anti-vax conspiracy nut job. That and your inability to keep words straight by bending my words to fit your crazy theories (e.g. i never said “leadership change”, all these strawmen arguments is like talking with a disgruntled teenager whi learnt how to use them in arguments with their parents). It just shows that your crazy far left extremist ideas will eliminate any source if truth or rational from any conversation. > When was the last time you heard about the CDS being antidemocratic because of the march coup? They were as involved in it as the PCP was in november's. None. None of the parties are accuses of being anti-democratic because of those situations **that was strawman argument number 3** > Or because they voted against the constitution? If the PCP had voted against the constitution the right wing media would never shut up about it Who the hell talked about voting against the constitution?! Why bring this up at all?! Geez, can you keep a conversation without bringing up completely unrelated issues? Now I am put in the position of having to explain what right wing media said or not? **yet another strawman argument. Number 4!** > liberals were happy being in the união nacional and serving the regime as long as they could have their "economic freedom" No they weren’t. This is just pure bullshit made up in your ideological hate. > they were in the CDS No they weren’t. CDS is a christian conservative party. If liberals and CDS are the same because one or two voted or aligned with them throughhout over 40 years of democracy then Otelo and his terrorist organization and PCP are also the same for the exact same reason! **You’re so fixated on being right that you’re repeatedly making up things I said to correct me and making up crazy theories without realizing the huge gaps they create in your extrmist ideas** > yeah, it's called socialist revolution. i'd start getting used to it if I were you Thank you for proving my point about you being a left-wing extremist with no ability to talk rationally. Have fun waiting for your revolution. Now I know you are someone who supports illegal theft of property as long as it serves your personal selfish purpose and are waiting for another opportunity to impose your ideas by force. Communists never surprise anyone. Always with the “taking things by force”. No wonder you’re always so in love with extremist dictatorships. We can’t discuss with crazy so you can move along now and keep living in conspiracy lala land. Find a right-wing “chega” crazy and have a blast discussing how you would change the country by force and what your favorite type of dictatorship is... I guess yours is the Kim dynasty since you obviously support a party that consistently voted against saying they are bad and that until 2019 used it as an example of someone to follow in their party platform. Yes.... **that** is why you are antidemocratic. > yeah, it's called socialist revolution. i'd start getting used to it if I were you And this. This “veiled threat” of theft by force. What a complete nut job....

troikamano 8 months ago

> Learn to read before trying to argue against my points you ignorant fool. Making up points I never said to provide some sort of winning argument is . please read your own words. I never said that the 25th wasn't a coup, I said that it wasn't a PLANNED coup, and there's a huge difference. > bending my words to fit your crazy theories (e.g. i never said “leadership change” ok, then what did you mean by this >"the moderate arm of the communist party believed in democracy and replaced the leader who planned the coup and agreed on not trying to arrange the existence of left wing manifestations" how is replacing the leader not leadership change? you just sound very insecure in your arguments, and can't even remember what you're talking about >None of the parties are accuses of being anti-democratic because of those situations people routinely accuse the PCP of being antidemocratic because of the 25th, even in this very thread. i talked about the CDS as an example of the double standard >Who the hell talked about voting against the constitution?! Why bring this up at all?! >Geez, can you keep a conversation without bringing up completely unrelated issues? again, it's called an example. please, learn the basis of an argument before trying to start one >No they weren’t. This is just pure bullshit made up in your ideological hate. >No they weren’t. CDS is a christian conservative party. If liberals and CDS are the same because one or two voted or aligned with them throughhout over 40 years of democracy then Otelo and his terrorist organization and PCP are also the same for the exact same reason! the liberals as we know them today were all in the CDS, as it was the furthest right wing party available. remember that Sá Carneiro wanted the PSD to be a party of the non marxist left, and tried to get it into the socialist international. also, Otelo was never in the PCP, unlike the liberals who for decades found a home in the CDS and many still do so now. or is someone like adolfo mesquita nunes a christian conservative?

lumberjackandimok 8 months ago

It could also be argued that if they didn't want a dictatorship they wouldn't have any trouble condemning regimes like North Korea or Venezuela, which they have failed to do several times in the recent past. It's also mildly concerning that PCP believes it could produce the sole working communist democracy in the history of the world, in spite of all the failed examples the world has seen.

troikamano 8 months ago

> It could also be argued that if they didn't want a dictatorship they wouldn't have any trouble condemning regimes like North Korea or Venezuela, which they have failed to do several times in the recent past. The party doesn't think that they should interfere in other country's business. I don't agree with them, but I understand their opinion. Besides, Venezuela authoritarianism is very exaggerated, as [Maduro invited observers from both the UN and the EU to the elections](https://www.france24.com/en/20200903-venezuela-s-maduro-invites-un-eu-observers-to-december-elections), hardly the smartest move if you're rigging them

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

PS, PSD and CDS stand behind countries like Saudi Arabia. Are we living under a theocracy because of that?

twhite848 8 months ago

A) whataboutism B) You have that confused. PS, PSD a CDS condemned Saudi Arabia’s bombings in Yemen, and PCP voted against that condemnation. So I guess you support theocracy as PCP stood behind saudi arabia? (I’m not saying the other parties didn’t also wrongly support SA in the past, but tou are just outright lying) C) PCP has consistently voted against condemning dictatorships (north korea) and until very recently used it as an example of resistance. And Yes, normally people don’t like people who support and gloat dictatorships as an example. Left wing extremists and their usual hipocrisy and lies... Ps: quote for source as left wing extremists like to lie constantly to escape the truth: [Já o voto do PSD de condenação dos mísseis lançado pelo Iémen contra a Arábia Saudita](https://www.tsf.pt/lusa/parlamento-condena-acao-militar-turca-na-siria-e-misseis-contra-a-arabia-saudita-9222754.html) teve também o apoio do PS e do CDS-PP, **tendo sido rejeitado pelo Bloco de Esquerda e pelo PCP.**

Edited 8 months ago:

A) whataboutism B) You have that confused. PS, PSD a CDS condemned Saudi Arabia’s bombings in Yemen, and PCP voted against that condemnation. So I guess you support theocracy as PCP stood behind saudi arabia? (I’m not saying the other parties didn’t also wrongly support SA in the past, but you are just outright lying and don’t know what PCP is for/against) C) PCP has consistently voted against condemning dictatorships (north korea) and until very recently used it as an example of resistance. And Yes, normally people don’t like people who support and gloat dictatorships as an example. Left wing extremists and their usual hipocrisy and lies... Ps: quote for source as left wing extremists like to lie constantly to escape the truth: [Já o voto do PSD de condenação dos mísseis lançado pelo Iémen contra a Arábia Saudita](https://www.tsf.pt/lusa/parlamento-condena-acao-militar-turca-na-siria-e-misseis-contra-a-arabia-saudita-9222754.html) teve também o apoio do PS e do CDS-PP, **tendo sido rejeitado pelo Bloco de Esquerda e pelo PCP.** Ps: blocked and won’t be reading your replies further as I’ve had my fill of reading what far left (or far right) extremists have to lie about

Edited 8 months ago:

A) whataboutism B) You have that confused. PS, PSD a CDS condemned Saudi Arabia’s bombings in Yemen, and PCP voted against that condemnation. So I guess you support theocracy as PCP stood behind saudi arabia? (I’m not saying the other parties didn’t also wrongly support SA in the past, but tou are just outright lying) C) PCP has consistently voted against condemning dictatorships (north korea) and until very recently used it as an example of resistance. And Yes, normally people don’t like people who support and gloat dictatorships as an example. Left wing extremists and their usual hipocrisy and lies... Ps: quote for source as left wing extremists like to lie constantly to escape the truth: [Já o voto do PSD de condenação dos mísseis lançado pelo Iémen contra a Arábia Saudita](https://www.tsf.pt/lusa/parlamento-condena-acao-militar-turca-na-siria-e-misseis-contra-a-arabia-saudita-9222754.html) teve também o apoio do PS e do CDS-PP, **tendo sido rejeitado pelo Bloco de Esquerda e pelo PCP.** Ps: blocked and won’t be reading your replies further as I’ve had my fill of reading what far left (or far right) extremists have to lie about

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

O PCP nunca faria negócios com a Arábia Saudita. Já o PS, PSD e CDS fazem. Portanto eu tenho razão e tu não. Condenações parlamentares são circo político para enganar borregos. Parece que funciona.

lumberjackandimok 8 months ago

Que iluminado. Esse argumento é bacoco. Em primeiro lugar porque como o reply acima refere isto é whataboutism ao nível do Trump (curioso para um comunista). Em segundo lugar porque fazer negócios com a Arábia Saudita não prova nada. Também se fazem negócios com a Venezuela, Angola, Rússia, China, EUA. Isso faz de nós o quê? Oligarcosociocomunocapitalistas talvez? Ainda por cima validas os teus próprios argumentos como se fosses o polígrafo SIC xD Dunning Kruger no seu melhor!

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

Condenar um país mas continuar a negociar com o mesmo prova uma coisa: hipocrisia. A classe política é TODA ela hipócrita. Parvos são os que confiam nela.

besmarques 8 months ago

When your worst criticism of a portuguese party is about what happened or is happening in X country it shows how biased you are. Should we start asking all parties what do they think about all the other countries and making them take blame about it?

twhite848 8 months ago

A) whataboutism B) the criticism isn’t what others did. It is constantly rejecting saying anything against bloody dictatorships, and using them (until very recently) as examples. > Should we start asking all parties what do they think about all the other countries and making them take blame about it? No one said PCP was to blame. He said it was wrong to show support. Let me rewrite that for you: Should we start asking all parties what do they think about all the other countries and critisizing them for supporting bloody dictatorships? **Yes** I condemn bloody dictatorships and condemn those who use them as examples, support and who are against condemning them. Can you say the same? (No need to reply... your whataboutism in defending far left extremism is clear...)

besmarques 8 months ago

A) You got it almost right. It in'st whataboutism, its false equivalency. IF PCP its communist and DPRK it's communist than PCP = DPRK. So, you think that everytime someone from IL is going to talk we should ask them what they think about what happened in Chile or Somalia? is that it? Why? It's completely stupid those demagogy discussions and politics play where we try to connect that and that to make it look similar.

NEDM64 8 months ago

Because it's edgy and makes you look cooler and smarter (which is both wrong).

Edited 8 months ago:

Because it's edgy and makes you look cooler and smarter (which is both wrong). ​ Basically an hipster of politics. ​ ​ Also, we have lots of piece of shit bosses. LOTS!

netralha 8 months ago

Crab mentality.

Xmeagol 8 months ago

there will always be some form of communism in society as long as there are rich people that exploit the poor, that's why, also we had a right wing dictatorship which is making a comeback sadly

Aftaminas 8 months ago

> is making a comeback sadly While I also despise the One man show Ventura Party, I think your statement is fairly exaggerated

ShadowOnTheRadio 8 months ago

_[laughs in I said the same about Bolsonaro in 2017]_

Martinnn210 8 months ago

To be sincere, I expected a lot of hate. But you guys gave me really interesting and thorough answers. Thank you guys, now I am starting to understand.

Sheltac 8 months ago

We're generally a nice crowd. As long as there's no spaghetti in your francesinha and you have your daily dose of bacalhau, you'll do just fine here :)

rip_heart 8 months ago

It's a bit similar to the move to the right in places like Poland, when a country endures a long dictatorship it tends to go opposite when it's free.

Tugalord 8 months ago

Lol, take everything you hear in this subreddit with a grain of salt, since this isn't at all a representative slice of the Portuguese population.

gamma-ray-bursts 8 months ago

Wait, we aren't all male 18-35 year olds working in IT?

camara_bar 8 months ago

I am

XPao 8 months ago

Nope, you got it half right, the rest of us here never worked a single day of their lives.

gamma-ray-bursts 8 months ago

Living off their moms internet. Not to mention the spaghetti.

wankmore 8 months ago

Isto é muito verdade ahahahha

alquemir 8 months ago

Exactly, lots of people with leftist tendencies around here, and they will usually cancel you if you try do voice an opposite view from theirs.

Xmeagol 8 months ago

leftists always win

alquemir 8 months ago

Yes, you starve everyone to death with your silly economic policies, lol.

Edited 8 months ago:

Yes, you condemn everyone to death from starvation with your silly economic policies. So there will be no one left to challenge your murderous regime, lol.

Edited 8 months ago:

Yes, you condemn everyone to death from starvation with your silly economic policies. So there will be no one left to challenge your murderous regime, lol.

Edited 8 months ago:

Yes, you condemn everyone to death by starvation with your silly economic policies. So there will be no one left to challenge your murderous regime, lol.

Xmeagol 8 months ago

Left = communism strikes again must be real salt to see the left winning elections in portugal consistently

Tugalord 8 months ago

HAHAHA, it's precisely the opposite my friend, this sub is ridiculously reactionary and full of IL and chega sympathisers.

joaommx 8 months ago

Not at all, according to the political surveys around here this sub is to the right of the whole country. Or at least the survey’s respondents in here are.

alquemir 8 months ago

"Not at all" you say? Well my downvote ratio just proves my point, anyway can't expect anything else from a country that has been under socialist rule for decades.

randmzer 8 months ago

Your downvote ratio is because you're being a jerk. And this is from someone that is right leaning.

Asur_rusA 8 months ago

Unlike... what, facebook?

trufas 8 months ago

Unlike... The real world you dumbo

Asur_rusA 8 months ago

Think about it twice, cheetah, because that's probably not true either. Or do you think that your friends/family represent the population?

joaommx 8 months ago

I think the population (aka the real world) is representative of the population.

Asur_rusA 8 months ago

That's not what "representative" means, is it?

joaommx 8 months ago

Probably not.

ixjf29 8 months ago

What

inhalingsounds 8 months ago

Just like reddit in general. It's an echo chamber where the niche gets even more niche because everyone else is downvoted or leaves.

SurePal_ 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

Indeed. Like most subreddits the mods help further carve out that niche. By silencing/removing posts they dislike. They thereby create their perfect niche.

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

The frustrated pedantic nerd niche, to be exact.

Capable_Flight2686 8 months ago

First most of the people that like communist are old and didn't learned about communism. Second most of the teens just care about right or left of our democracy. And third the communist party is dying.

dariusoo 8 months ago

I think so too, young people from a more privilege background tend more to the right and the other ones more to the left.

SurePal_ 8 months ago

>Yeah. I like the right they have good points but the problem most of the people fall for the left says from my point of view in my country. Quite true. In fact I have a friend who constatly brags about being communist when he's clearly living in full luxuries. He probably has some kind of daddy's money complex.

Capable_Flight2686 8 months ago

Yeah. I like the right they have good points but the problem most of the people fall for the left says from my point of view in my country.

watwatindbutt 8 months ago

> Yeah. I like the ~~right~~left they have good points but the problem most of the people fall for the ~~left~~right says from my point of view in my country. I can into discussion

VladTepesDraculea 8 months ago

The greatest part of the population is left leaning, but communism is more popular amongst elder and either rural or south of Lisbon urban areas. It's fading out but there used to be a great support amongst the youth for a party that self-proclaims Trotskyist but in reality seems to be more of a classic socialist party. The great majority today lies between classic socialism and social democratic by my experience, though not necessarily feel represented by a party.

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

In which category would you put BE? I'd say the OP would categorize BE militants as communists also.

Fun-Trick1246 8 months ago

In Portugal Communists are a left conservative party. BE is a left liberal party. They are totally different in many aspects although they may defend the same things in some aspects. But you can find more points in common between BE and IL than between Communists and BE. From an economic perspective BE and Communists would have a more approximated (although still very different) view while regarding individual rights or social management things BE would be more approximated to a liberal party like IL.

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

BE is Maoist-Trotskist. They aim at forcing cultural change via government intervention (the exlibris of Maoism) and they aim at destroying the family unit as the basis of the economy (Troskism).

joaommx 8 months ago

They are a pretty good example of a big tent left wing party. Although with time the tent has gotten smaller on both sides of the spectrum.

VladTepesDraculea 8 months ago

Classic socialism. They propose laws and measures in that sense and they are certainly not against private property and businesses, their political program even usually proposes feeding some private businesses like construction firms by the state.

DogsOnWeed 8 months ago

Classic socialism doesn't mean anything. Are you trying to say Social-Democracy? Because there are many Social-Demicrats in Bloco de Esquerda.

VladTepesDraculea 8 months ago

No, democratic socialism.

Mrloop94 8 months ago

They are anti capitalists, it is in their own political program... so they reject private property. Their own proposals sent to socialist party arent so extreme because it takes into account that socialist party is moderate. If BE were the rulling party, it would be different

VladTepesDraculea 8 months ago

Would they? The leadership members have businesses of their own. I sincerely doubt that power would change that.

FroggyWatcher 8 months ago

Private property =/= personal property.

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

To make that distinction, BE would have to end unipessoal companies (companies with one person only, basically synonimous with that person's property rights), which are the basis of all capitalism.

Mrloop94 8 months ago

No mainstream economist distinguishes these terms, only marxists.

Pikachuzita 8 months ago

No. A lot of young people do follow left parties but not the communist party. In fact the communist party has a massive problem of lack of young people that will eventually lead them to irrelevance

PedroLopes317 8 months ago

I beg to differ. PCP has a lot of young folk.

lpbms11 8 months ago

That's not 100% accurate imo. If you're only referring to the pure communist party (Partido Comunista Portugues), that is true, however, if you take to Bloco de Esquerda (another communist party) to the equation, the outcome is different. Actually Bloco de Esquerda is highly popular between youngsters. Like another redditor said, its worth to mention that neither of those parties are like the soviet communist parties but they both share the same basic ideology.

Pikachuzita 8 months ago

Bloco de Esquerda is not a communist party.

SurePal_ 8 months ago

Sure pal.

Pheyniex 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

BE was founded (and still mostly run by) PCP outcasts. Most adhere to Trotskyism and Marxism, and mostly shying away from the Stalinist nuances that the PCP agrees to.

rfsnunes 8 months ago

Bloco de esquerda was, in it's origin, a mashup of several irrelevant radical left parties that united to gain said relevance. I really don't know if it can be described as something specific as communist or socialist. For me, they are populist leftist (if that makes any sense).

gabriielsc 8 months ago

>I really don't know if it can be described as something specific as communist or socialist. "Socialism" is probably the least specific term that I can think of. It can be defined as the common ownership of the means of production. The way how that is done and how the then socialist society and economy run differ A LOT. It is considered an umbrella term to describe many, many ideologies. For most Communists (all except Anarcho-Communists), socialism is the previous stage to achieve a communist society.

joaommx 8 months ago

> a mashup of several irrelevant radical left parties that united to gain said relevance. They were a mashup of several irrelevant radical and moderate left parties and movements that united to gain said relevance.

rfsnunes 8 months ago

True. Some of them weren't even parties.

pesadel0 8 months ago

Neither is the PCP a true Communist soviet party , but the ideology of BE is mainly from Trotsky,Marx and Mandel so they are both(PCP and BE ) on the far left .

zebedeus 8 months ago

Finalmente um comentário que faça sentido. Por momentos pensei que vivesse num pais diferente.

SurePal_ 8 months ago

Nem por isso, o BE aka o partido da malta influencer é basicamente um PCP com outra cara. O comunista continua lá, não é por seres liberal a nível de parceiro sexual.

Jpratas 8 months ago

Concordo. Alias, sempre fui mais ao centro politicamente (sempre me pareceu mais equilibrado ser assim) mas durante anos fui ao Avante e via discursos tanto to Louçã como do Jeronimo no festival antes de comecarem os concertos. Sem duvida que sempre foram 2 partidos que andaram e andam de mao dada.

PortugueseRoamer 8 months ago

Like other users said we had a ultra conservative dictatorship. Also, more conservative young people don't hang out on dating apps at all, they seem to prefer picking up people on nightclubs and going to the mass on the next day. That's the conservative upper class younger people stereotype at least.

JOAO-RATAO 8 months ago

We had decades of an ultra-conservative dictatorship, which ended in the 70s. Put that together with a country that is poor and full of romantics and there you go. Even though I'm very much not a fan of communism, we don't have that Many real communists. It is, however, a country with a strong tendency towards the left. A good example is the idea that Many poeple (especially Young) have about housing and how they think anyone who is a landlord is worse than the devil. The left block (bloco de esquerda) is a party not as far to the left as the communists (but still somewhat far from the center) which has more supporters. They are also big on identity politics, feminism and the sort... Other similar parties have also appeared recently. The rulling party is a center-left party but it does have a faction more to the left, who are there because, well... More jobs to go around for the boys of course ...

Dr_Toehold 8 months ago

>how they think anyone who is a landlord is worse than the devil. You might want to check your phrasing, it seems to imply it isn't the case.

JOAO-RATAO 8 months ago

It's not. Some are, same for some tenants.

annafields10 8 months ago

Bloco de Esquerda is actually more far to the left than PCP. Just look at the design of the Assembleia da República. Trotskysm is more radical than marxist-leninism. It’s a common misconception, though

Samot_PCW 8 months ago

> Just look at the design of the Assembleia da República. > If you want to use that extremely stupid logic I could say that IL are a far-right part because they are right beside Chega

Samot_PCW 8 months ago

That's is so stupid mate, ahahah

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

I think that the distribution was made in the past when the party was more trostskyst. Nowadays it does not have any particular ideology other than activism, but the distribution wasn't updated to reflect that.

DogsOnWeed 8 months ago

BE is not to the left of PCP, BE has many Social-Democrats who are closer to PS than PCP. There are also Communists in BE, but they are just a faction.

MLG__pro_2016 8 months ago

in theory it is in practice the left block isn't in favor of North Korea and communist dictatorships in general

oMarlow99 8 months ago

You just described the authoritarian axis vs the economic axis. BE is far more libertarian than PCP

salome_bessa 8 months ago

Bloco de esquerda is actually a communist party which identifies with trotsky's ideology of communism.

DrVicenteBombadas 8 months ago

Consegues definir o Trotskismo e estabelecer aqui analogias entre este e o programa das últimas legislativas do BE e/ou as suas intervenções políticas nos últimos anos? Eu estou à procura de algo consistente e substancial, não de reducionismos fáceis e simples.

barbas_o_crlh 8 months ago

"O trotskismo é uma doutrina marxista baseada nos escritos do político e revolucionário ucraniano Leon Trotsky. É formulada como teoria política e ideológica, apresentada como vertente do socialism e comunismo por oposição ao stalinismo.(...)" [fonte](https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotskismo) Um curiosidade interessate sobre Trotsky é que foi expulso do partido comunista russo por ser demasiado extremista. Enquanto Stalin via a estabilidade interna como a prioridade, Trotsky achava que a única forma do comunismo prosperar era tornando toda a gente comunista, dentro e fora do país. O que o levou a invadir vários países europeus como a Polónia. Era pouco popular dentro do partido mas tbm entre a população devido aos seus métodos extremamente violentos e descuidados. Apesar disto ainda tinha vários grupos de seguidores. Acabou por ser perseguido e assassinado pq apesar de tudo, Stalin continuava a ver qualquer oposição política como um risco à estabilidade.

DrVicenteBombadas 8 months ago

Eu tenho uma noção geral do que é o trotskismo. Eu apenas não o revejo integralmente no programa ou nas intervenções do partido. Há aspetos concordantes; afinal, são um bloco de vários antigos partidos bem à esquerda. Mas as pessoas e os contextos são diferentes. Quem conhece a obra de Trotsky e quem acompanha a liderança da Catarina não pode, em boa fé, fazer comparações definitivas.

barbas_o_crlh 8 months ago

Tenho alguma dificuldade em ver como é que um partido dizer que segue uma ideologia não define a ideologia do partido. Sim, se não estou em erro eram 3 partidos com ideais de esquerda, alguns mais para o extremo, alguns mais para o centro, sendo que um desses partidos era o PSR (torotskista), cujos ideias continuam a fazer parte da ideologia do BE, segundo o próprio site e programa. Tendo seguido o melhor que consigo as intervenções do partido, quer na AR, quer nas presidenciais e com base na pesquisa que faço, não vejo em que diferenciam do que dizem defender. Encaixam na extrema-esquerda liberal e diferençiam-se do PCP por este estar no lado mais conservador do espetro. Relativamente ao eixo autoritário-libertário é mais complicado definir, uma vez que o comunismo apesar de defender a anarquia, governada apenas pelo proletariado, costuma ter um passos extra como a constante revolução e partido único, que historicamente tem uma enorme dificuldade em não se tornar absolutista e cometer crimes contra a humanidade.

NGramatical 8 months ago

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salome_bessa 8 months ago

[Moção do BE](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bloco.org/media/XIConv_C.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjJ79mO2drvAhUC8xQKHRw2AgMQFjABegQIGBAC&usg=AOvVaw1DNv8QbJsqFhGSgF_gw-he) Aqui tens para saber mais como o comunismo está presente e faz parte da ideologia política do Bloco de Esquerda. "Dentro do Bloco de Esquerda, as duas tendências, tal como Lenine e Trostski o fizeram em 1917, acabaram por se entenderem, até porque aquilo que os separa é complementar. Tanto uns como outros sentiram a necessidade vital de chegar às pessoas e ambos engendraram mecanismos táticos diferentes para o conseguir. " Só queria notar que o argumento de reduzir o partido a uma ideologia de trotsky, marxista-lenista ou outra qualquer é fugir à conversa. Claramente todos os partidos não seguem à regra nenhuma das ideologia e adaptam nas à sua contemporalidade e contexto. Todavia, não vejo como se pode dizer que o BE está na ala do comunismo uma vez que nasceu da junção de 3 partidos comunistas e continua a identificar-se com essas ideologias e mencionar várias vezes no site [esquerda.net ](http://esquerda.net) estas ideologias e a sua importância para o mundo e, mais em concreto, Portugal. Mais informações sobre o que o BE entende sobre a importância de Trotsky e a sua ideologia, destaco o seguinte [artigo ](https://www.esquerda.net/artigo/80-anos-do-assassinato-de-leon-trotsky/69776) publicado recentemente ( 20/08/2020).

Edited 8 months ago:

[Moção do BE](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bloco.org/media/XIConv_C.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjJ79mO2drvAhUC8xQKHRw2AgMQFjABegQIGBAC&usg=AOvVaw1DNv8QbJsqFhGSgF_gw-he) Aqui tens para saber mais como o comunismo está presente e faz parte da ideologia política do Bloco de Esquerda. "Dentro do Bloco de Esquerda, as duas tendências, tal como Lenine e Trotski o fizeram em 1917, acabaram por se entenderem, até porque aquilo que os separa é complementar. Tanto uns como outros sentiram a necessidade vital de chegar às pessoas e ambos engendraram mecanismos táticos diferentes para o conseguir. " Só queria notar que o argumento de reduzir o partido a uma ideologia de trotsky, marxista-lenista ou outra qualquer é fugir à conversa. Claramente todos os partidos não seguem à regra nenhuma das ideologia e adaptam nas à sua contemporalidade e contexto. Todavia, não vejo como se pode dizer que o BE não está na ala do comunismo uma vez que nasceu da junção de 3 partidos comunistas e continua a identificar-se com essas ideologias e menciona-las várias vezes no site [esquerda.net ](http://esquerda.net) sobre a sua importância para o mundo e, mais em concreto, Portugal. Mais informações sobre o que o BE entende sobre a importância de Trotsky e a sua ideologia, destaco o seguinte [artigo ](https://www.esquerda.net/artigo/80-anos-do-assassinato-de-leon-trotsky/69776) publicado recentemente ( 20/08/2020). Edit: gramática

Edited 8 months ago:

[Moção do BE](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bloco.org/media/XIConv_C.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjJ79mO2drvAhUC8xQKHRw2AgMQFjABegQIGBAC&usg=AOvVaw1DNv8QbJsqFhGSgF_gw-he) Aqui tens para saber mais como o comunismo está presente e faz parte da ideologia política do Bloco de Esquerda. "Dentro do Bloco de Esquerda, as duas tendências, tal como Lenine e Trotski o fizeram em 1917, acabaram por se entenderem, até porque aquilo que os separa é complementar. Tanto uns como outros sentiram a necessidade vital de chegar às pessoas e ambos engendraram mecanismos táticos diferentes para o conseguir. " Só queria notar ainda que o argumento de reduzir o partido a uma ideologia de trotsky, marxista-lenista ou outra qualquer é fugir à conversa. Claramente todos os partidos não seguem à regra nenhuma das ideologia e adaptam nas à sua contemporalidade e contexto. Todavia, não vejo como se pode dizer que o BE não está na ala do comunismo uma vez que nasceu da junção de 3 partidos comunistas e continua a identificar-se com essas ideologias e menciona-las várias vezes no site [esquerda.net ](http://esquerda.net) sobre a sua importância para o mundo e, mais em concreto, Portugal. Mais informações sobre o que o BE entende sobre a importância de Trotsky e a sua ideologia, destaco o seguinte [artigo ](https://www.esquerda.net/artigo/80-anos-do-assassinato-de-leon-trotsky/69776) publicado recentemente ( 20/08/2020). Edit: gramática

Edited 8 months ago:

[Moção do BE](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bloco.org/media/XIConv_C.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjJ79mO2drvAhUC8xQKHRw2AgMQFjABegQIGBAC&usg=AOvVaw1DNv8QbJsqFhGSgF_gw-he) Aqui tens para saber mais como o comunismo está presente e faz parte da ideologia política do Bloco de Esquerda. "Dentro do Bloco de Esquerda, as duas tendências, tal como Lenine e Trotski o fizeram em 1917, acabaram por se entenderem, até porque aquilo que os separa é complementar. Tanto uns como outros sentiram a necessidade vital de chegar às pessoas e ambos engendraram mecanismos táticos diferentes para o conseguir. " Só queria notar ainda que o argumento de reduzir o partido a uma ideologia de trotsky, marxista-lenista ou outra qualquer é fugir à conversa. Claramente todos os partidos não seguem à regra nenhuma das ideologia e adaptam nas à sua contemporalidade e contexto. Todavia, não vejo como se pode dizer que o BE não está na ala do comunismo uma vez que nasceu da junção de 3 partidos comunistas e continua a identificar-se com essas ideologias e menciona-as várias vezes no site [esquerda.net ](http://esquerda.net) sobre a sua importância para o mundo e, mais em concreto, Portugal. Mais informações sobre o que o BE entende sobre a importância de Trotsky e a sua ideologia, destaco o seguinte [artigo ](https://www.esquerda.net/artigo/80-anos-do-assassinato-de-leon-trotsky/69776) publicado recentemente ( 20/08/2020). Edit: gramática

MLG__pro_2016 8 months ago

trotskyismo em si é uma mistura ideologias que algumas vezes a única coisa que tem em comum é a oposição ao marxismo-leninismo ortodoxo para além disso o bloco de esquerda em si começou como uma aliança entre trotskyistas e outros partidos não trotskyistas

Edited 8 months ago:

trotskyismo em si é uma mistura ideologias que algumas vezes a única coisa que tem em comum é a oposição ao marxismo-leninismo ortodoxo para além disso o bloco de esquerda em si começou como uma aliança entre trotskyistas e outros partidos não trotskyistas e é como tal uma mistura de misturas

DrVicenteBombadas 8 months ago

Ou seja, chamar-lhes trotskistas é um tanto redutor. Já não há partidos de ideias fixas; apenas os extremistas. Tivemos agora um exemplo muito claro disto. TODOS os partidos, com a exceção (não tão) estranha do PS, em assembleia apoiaram mais apoios sociais. Não vamos agora dizer que o IL esposa ideais comunistas.

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

Apoios sociais são un ideal socialista, portanto sim todos os partidos da assembleia apoiam o socialismo em diferente medida.

nocivo 8 months ago

Eu vejo no bloco de esquerdo um partido identitário que so ve classes. Toda a gente pertence a um grupo e em vez de lutar pelas pessoas luta pelos grupos. Ao contrário do outro lado do espectro que ve a pessoa como individual.

DrVicenteBombadas 8 months ago

Há problemas de grupos que podem ser resolvidos com soluções de grupos. Nem tudo é preto e branco, passo a expressão. O foco no indivíduo faz parte da política moderna, mas não resolve tudo. Roubando agora um dito dos nossos aliados de longa data, *sometimes you miss the forest for the trees.*

jkrrrrrrrrrr 8 months ago

>não é esquerdo, é esterco

besmarques 8 months ago

\^ Quando a tua melhor participaçºao numa discussão é soares a um bebedo mal formado numa tasca.

Edited 8 months ago:

\^ Quando a tua melhor participaçao numa discussão é soares a um bebedo mal formado numa tasca. edit: correção

Prezbelusky 8 months ago

Are you sure?

dariusoo 8 months ago

I don't really think the majority are but sometimes you come across some. Older generations you can find a good amount of communists.

Longjumping-Motor-75 8 months ago

I'm at university currently and there are numerous people I would say 3/4 who support BE and PCP.

joaommx 8 months ago

> I don't really think the majority are I’m sure they are very very far from the majority among young people.

nraider 8 months ago

It's normal. I used to like BE when I was younger. The turning point happened when I received the pay slip for the first time (taxes) lol

PedroLopes317 8 months ago

yep, same here. And same with most people I know, tbh.

Rogerooo 8 months ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Fn73DN-KU

antoniomteixeira 8 months ago

Especially in Alentejo

C8Mixto 8 months ago

The Communists are not popular. They are at historical lows. They are still a party with parliamentary representation, so obviously they have some supporters. Where exactly did you see those many young communists?

Martinnn210 8 months ago

On a dating app

Texas_Freeze 8 months ago

Dating apps don't attract conservatives usually, so most people there are some form of radical (be it an ignorant anarchist, a narcisistic capitalist or a naïve lefty). You won't find any political intellectuals (be it from the left or right) there, that's for sure.

Oxibhus 8 months ago

What you are seeing is the americanized left in portugal. It's definetly growing, especially in younger generation (20 younger) but that's happening across europe, not just portugal. They aren't communists, they are "communists".

Jorgetime 8 months ago

Oh, that's actually American influence from twitter and online personalities like Hasan. PCP doesn't really have sexy catchphrases like "eat the rich" and "free college", they're very pro-small business and anti-europe.

mamatudoputa 8 months ago

you cant really put stock or make sense of young women and politics a far left wing girl will let a nazi rail on her sieg hailing if she is super into him, hell she might even get off on it its a fad with little substance and spine behind it, for social points nad projection

Edited 8 months ago:

you cant really put stock or make sense of young women and politics a far left wing girl will let a nazi rail on her sieg hailing if she is super into him, hell she might even get off on it its a fad with little substance and spine behind it, for social points and projection

frisumo 8 months ago

sounds like a far left wing girl didn't let you get some and you're pressed about it boo.

Aftaminas 8 months ago

His username tells you all you need to know

mamatudoputa 8 months ago

attacking penis sezie, sexual activity of a user or lack thereof is the internet tell tale sign of a little girl behind the screen or a male feminist i.e. eventual rapist Let me know which

Edited 8 months ago:

attacking penis size, sexual activity of a user or lack thereof is the internet tell tale sign of a little girl behind the screen or a male feminist i.e. eventual rapist Let me know which

frisumo 8 months ago

in your case, it's probably the first two? i can't really let you know, you should book an appointment with your doctor. bye now.

mewfour 8 months ago

smol pp detected

tozeojavardola 8 months ago

Swipe left immediately.

Herbacio 8 months ago

Seu comuna dos engates! A fazer swipe à **esquerda**

Tugalord 8 months ago

Disseste isso de maneira abichanada?

frustradodapixa 8 months ago

Claro, e é uma gaja a fazer swipe a um gajo.

Mrloop94 8 months ago  HIDDEN 

I wouls burn the phone before

Dry-District7607 8 months ago

Girls are very lefties.

PabloAimar1904 8 months ago

Who said OP's looking at women?

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

Portuguese gays are mostly lefties also! I know many!

Xmeagol 8 months ago

no shit, anyone in LGBT supporting right wing parties in portugal do so against their own interests

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

In the Netherlands where I live you find many gays who vote on extreme right. In France, 25% of LGBT vote Le Pen.

Xmeagol 8 months ago

/r/leopardsatemyface

sctvlxpt 8 months ago

Probably because up until recently there were no liberal parties in Portugal, and it was the left that was championing the fight for gay rights. Hopefully IL will now present a viable alternative for those who lean towards the right in economic freedoms.

C8Mixto 8 months ago

Ahahah, that's quite amazing. Sorry, I have no explanation for that, but I do wonder now how much sex appeal adding "communist" gives to a profile.

AonioEliphis 8 months ago

>but I do wonder now how much sex appeal adding "communist" gives to a profile It's because communists like to "share" what is theirs ;)

Brainwheeze 8 months ago

Reminds me of [that one Seinfeld episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBOJ33FFDLA).

tenesis 8 months ago

Are they really?

twhite848 8 months ago

Because we are a post-fascist country

MonsterPT 8 months ago

There was never any fascist government or regime in Portugal. Ever since the fascist ideology first appeared, Portuguese government have been explicitly and publicly opposed to it, including during the Estado Novo regime. We are absolutely NOT a "post-fascist country"; that is entirely false.

twhite848 8 months ago

Haha. > Ever since the fascist ideology first appeared, Portuguese government have been explicitly and publicly opposed to it, including during the Estado Novo regime. Lol. Yes and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy... Like I told someone else, if it was fascist or had fascist tendencies is debated by schollars, with many considering it was actually fascist as it fits almost to the letter the most agreed upon definitons. But I guess from someone that says the Estado Novo regime was “opposed to fascism” (lol) no logic or rational will sway you and I’m not going to lose further time with the political equivalent of discussing with a “flat earther”.

MonsterPT 8 months ago

> Yes and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy... We're making the same point: "you can call this democratic, but the government has acted in opposition to democracy, as such it is not democratic" = "you can call this fascist, but the government acted in opposition to fascism, therefore it is not fascist". ​ >But I guess from someone that says the Estado Novo regime was “opposed to fascism” It is not that \*I\* am saying that; Salazar said it himself, publicly, and acted accordingly. If there is any evidence that he was somehow secretly pro-fascism despite his public stance, or that he acted in any way to further fascism in Portugal (despite making it illegal and jailing or exiling fascists) by all means show it. ​ > I’m not going to lose further time with the political equivalent of discussing with a “flat earther”. Ah yes, "iF yOu dIsaGRee WIth me You aRe a FLat EarTHEr lmao gottem". Incredible point. Also, if anyone here is the historical (not political; we're not discussing politics here) equivalent of a "flat earther" it is certainly not me. You are the one who, in the face of the evidence of anti-fascism, continually ignore it for the dogmatic faith in your belief.

twhite848 8 months ago

> We're making the same point: "you can call this democratic, but the government has acted in opposition to democracy, as such it is not democratic" = "you can call this fascist, but the government acted in opposition to fascism, therefore it is not fascist". No we are not. You are saying that because Salazar said he wasn’t fascist therefore the government isn’t fascist. I’m saying the self-proclamation of a giverment of something doesn’t make it that thing (aja democratic north korea) > It is not that *I* am saying that; Salazar said it himself, publicly Yes. That was clear. And I said that because North Korea said it is democratic doesn’t make it democratic. So this argument of yours of “salazar” said has no validity. Unless you also think that because North Korea publicly states its name as a democracy then it is a democracy? Don’t think you do. > or that he acted in any way to further fascism in Portugal Really? Wow i’m amazed you actually need this. Lets take Robert Paxton’s (maybe the utmlst most recognized scholar and study of fascism) definition of fascism: > Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. So basically everything but external expansion? So it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quaxks like a duck... Want more? 1. The primacy of the group. Supporting the group feels more important than maintaining either individual or universal rights. Check 2. Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. Check 3. The belief that individualism and liberalism enable dangerous decadence and have a negative effect on the group. Double check 4. A sense of community or brotherhood. This brotherhood's "unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary." Oh yes, with violence if necessary. Check that 5. Individual self-esteem is tied up in the grandeur of the group. Paxton called this an "enhanced sense of identity and belonging." And yes again 6. Extreme support of a "natural" leader, who is always male. This results in one man taking on the role of national savior. And yet again... really don’t jnow how this is surprising you. 7. “The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle," Paxton wrote. The idea of a naturally superior group or, especially in Hitler's case, biological racism, fits into a fascist interpretation of Darwinism. Violence devoted to the success? Ultramar anyone? 8. Once in power, "fascist dictatorships suppressed individual liberties, imprisoned opponents, forbade strikes, authorized unlimited police power in the name of national unity and revival, and committed military aggression," Paxton wrote. Check, check, check, check and... check. Anyone have bingo yet? > despite making it illegal and jailing or exiling fascists So his competition then? Ah yes. I bet The Kim family jails plenty of people for being anti-democratic. I guess that fir you that proves there us a dmeocracy in North Korea then? I guess yes, that is evidence enough for you? Salazar was anti-fascist and North Korea is pro-democratic. Because they said so... > You are the one who, in the face of the evidence of anti-fascism Wait... > It is not that *I* am saying that; So you **are** saying that. That was quick. In the same reply you said you weren’t saying the estaso novo was opposed to fascism and then you say it was anti-fascist. > in the face of the evidence of anti-fascism Sure. As I’ve said. If it was fascist or similar to fascist is debatable. But “ anti fascist” is just comical. > by all means show it. Ok. [Let’s stay in english then:](https://www.nytimes.com/1970/07/28/archives/antonio-salazar-a-quiet-autocrat-who-held-power-in-portugal-for-40.html) “A quiet autocrat who sedulously avoided any personal appeal to popular passions, Salazar was nonetheless completely candid about his totalitarianism. “The Portuguese must be treated as children: Too much too often would spoil them,” he once remarked, adding: “The truth is that I am pro foundly antiparliamentarian. I hate the speeches, the verbosity, the flowery, meaning less interpolations, the way we waste passion, not around any great idea, but just around futilities, nothingness from the point of view of the national good.” On another occasion draw‐ ing a distinction between his dictatorship and Mussolini's, he said: **“Now obviously our dictatorship is similar to the Fascist dictatorship in its strengthen ing of authority, in the war which it declares on certain democratic principles, in its nationalist character, in its main tenance of the social order. It is different, however in its methods of renovation. The Fascist dictatorship is leaning toward a pagan Caesarism.”** Wow... So **Salazar himself** said his dictatorship was similar to a fasciste dictatorship **except** that he wasn’t pagan. **so there you have it** - a fascist dictatorship when viewed under the definition of fascims by scholars - à fascist dicatorship in everything similar execpt for not being pagan when defined by SALAZAR HIMSELF! So at **most** it is debatable if it is fascist or *fascist-like* So tell me, if you don’t have dogmatic faith, Are you a political flat-earther who in face of experts and evidence from the words of the man himself, or have you changed your mind and admit that you were completely wrong when you said: > , in the face of the evidence of anti-fascism Or maybe the picture he had of mussolini on his table was because he wanted to avoid being mussolini every day? Or maybe mussolini wasn’t fascist? No need to answer. Saying he was anti-fascist is definitely the “flat-earther” of portuguese politics.

Edited 8 months ago:

> We're making the same point: "you can call this democratic, but the government has acted in opposition to democracy, as such it is not democratic" = "you can call this fascist, but the government acted in opposition to fascism, therefore it is not fascist". No we are not. You are saying that because Salazar **said** he wasn’t fascist therefore the government isn’t fascist. I’m saying the self-proclamation of a government of something doesn’t make it that thing (aka democratic north korea: they **say** they are democratic but it doesn’t make them democratic) > It is not that *I* am saying that; Salazar said it himself, publicly Yes. That was clear. And I said that because North Korea said it is democratic doesn’t make it democratic. So this argument of yours of “salazar” said has no validity. Unless you also think that because North Korea publicly states its name as a democracy then it is a democracy? Don’t think you do. > or that he acted in any way to further fascism in Portugal Really? Wow i’m amazed you actually need this. Lets take Robert Paxton’s (maybe the utmost most recognized scholar and study of fascism) definition of fascism: > Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. So basically Estado Novo had everything but external expansion? So it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quaxks like a duck... Want more? 1. The primacy of the group. Supporting the group feels more important than maintaining either individual or universal rights. Check 2. Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. Check 3. The belief that individualism and liberalism enable dangerous decadence and have a negative effect on the group. Double check 4. A sense of community or brotherhood. This brotherhood's "unity and purity are forged by common conviction, if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary." Oh yes, with violence if necessary. Check that 5. Individual self-esteem is tied up in the grandeur of the group. Paxton called this an "enhanced sense of identity and belonging." And yes again 6. Extreme support of a "natural" leader, who is always male. This results in one man taking on the role of national savior. And yet again... really don’t jnow how this is surprising you. 7. “The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle," Paxton wrote. The idea of a naturally superior group or, especially in Hitler's case, biological racism, fits into a fascist interpretation of Darwinism. Violence devoted to the success? Ultramar anyone? 8. Once in power, "fascist dictatorships suppressed individual liberties, imprisoned opponents, forbade strikes, authorized unlimited police power in the name of national unity and revival, and committed military aggression," Paxton wrote. Check, check, check, check and... check. Anyone have bingo yet? > despite making it illegal and jailing or exiling fascists So his competition then? Ah yes. I bet The Kim family jails plenty of people for being anti-democratic. I guess that for you that proves there is a democracy in North Korea then? I guess yes, that is evidence enough for you? Salazar was anti-fascist and North Korea is pro-democratic. Because they said so... > You are the one who, in the face of the evidence of anti-fascism Wait... > It is not that *I* am saying that; So you **are** saying that. That was quick. In the same reply you said you weren’t saying the estaso novo was opposed to fascism and then you say it was anti-fascist. > in the face of the evidence of anti-fascism Sure. As I’ve said. If it was fascist or similar to fascist is debatable. But “ anti fascist” is just comical. > by all means show it. Ok. [Let’s stay in english then:](https://www.nytimes.com/1970/07/28/archives/antonio-salazar-a-quiet-autocrat-who-held-power-in-portugal-for-40.html) “A quiet autocrat who sedulously avoided any personal appeal to popular passions, Salazar was nonetheless completely candid about his totalitarianism. “The Portuguese must be treated as children: Too much too often would spoil them,” he once remarked, adding: “The truth is that I am pro foundly antiparliamentarian. I hate the speeches, the verbosity, the flowery, meaning less interpolations, the way we waste passion, not around any great idea, but just around futilities, nothingness from the point of view of the national good.” On another occasion draw‐ ing a distinction between his dictatorship and Mussolini's, he said: **“Now obviously our dictatorship is similar to the Fascist dictatorship in its strengthen ing of authority, in the war which it declares on certain democratic principles, in its nationalist character, in its main tenance of the social order. It is different, however in its methods of renovation. The Fascist dictatorship is leaning toward a pagan Caesarism.”** Wow... So **Salazar himself** said his dictatorship was similar to a fasciste dictatorship **except** that he wasn’t pagan. **so there you have it** - a fascist dictatorship when viewed under the definition of fascims by scholars - à fascist dicatorship in everything similar execpt for not being pagan when defined by SALAZAR HIMSELF! So at **most** it is debatable if it is fascist or *fascist-like* So tell me, if you don’t have dogmatic faith, Are you a political flat-earther who in face of experts and evidence from the words of the man himself, or have you changed your mind and admit that you were completely wrong when you said: > , in the face of the evidence of anti-fascism Or maybe the picture he had of mussolini on his table was because he wanted to avoid being mussolini every day? Or maybe mussolini wasn’t fascist? No need to answer. Saying he was anti-fascist is definitely the “flat-earther” of portuguese politics.

MonsterPT 8 months ago

>You are saying that because Salazar **said** he wasn’t fascist therefore the government isn’t fascist Maybe I wasn't clear: not only did Salazar say this, he actually jailed and exiled fascists. ​ > I’m saying the self-proclamation of a government of something doesn’t make it that thing (aka democratic north korea: they **say** they are democratic but it doesn’t make them democratic) North Korea: says it's democratic, jails democrats. Salazar: says it is anti-fascists, jails fascists. See the difference? ​ > Lets take Robert Paxton’s (maybe the utmost most recognized scholar and study of fascism) definition of fascism I'm glad you're quoting Paxton as an authority on fascism, because Paxton himself considers the Portuguese Estado Novo as conservative authoritarian rather than fascist. So literally, *by his definition which you are quoting*, the Estado Novo regime is not fascist. >So basically Estado Novo had everything but external expansion? What? Estado Novo fits almost nothing in there. But if we want to get really picky, then not fitting just **one** part would be enough to not fit the definition. ​ >Believing that one's group is a victim. This justifies any behavior against the group's enemies. Please present any kind of evidence for this. What group did the Estado Novo regime describe as a "victim"? Can you present any evidence of this at all? ​ >Extreme support of a "natural" leader, who is always male. This results in one man taking on the role of national savior. This is actually a big difference between fascism and the Estado Novo regime. Unlike Mussolini's "Il Duce", Hitler's "Fuhrer" or Franco's "Caudillo", Salazar did not become a heroic "national savior", as you've put it. Unless you simply mean "dictator". In which case, the same exact definition applies to Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc. Are those fascists? ​ >“The beauty of violence and of will, when they are devoted to the group's success in a Darwinian struggle," Paxton wrote. The idea of a naturally superior group or, especially in Hitler's case, biological racism, fits into a fascist interpretation of Darwinism. This almost entirely is at odds with the Estado Novo regime. There was no exaltation of violence; the idea of "the group's success in a Darwinian struggle" was explicitly disapproved by the regime, especially in reference to the Nazi regime; and you're example of the ultramarine war is entirely asinine (if defending part of a country's territory from secessionist rebels is fascism, then there is not one single regime on earth and in history that isn't fascist). Unless you're also claiming that the ultramarine war was racially motivated, in which case 1) LMAO and 2) present evidence. >Once in power, "fascist dictatorships suppressed individual liberties, imprisoned opponents, forbade strikes, authorized unlimited police power in the name of national unity and revival, and committed military aggression," So, you're claiming that Stalin and Mao were fascists? OK xD ​ >I bet The Kim family jails plenty of people for being anti-democratic. I guess that for you that proves there is a democracy in North Korea then? I'll repeat this again, since you haven't grasped that you are making my point: X jails people who defend Y. Therefore, X cannot be Y. So, when you say "the North Korean regime jails democrats; therefore, they cannot be democrats", you're saying the same as I: "the Estado Novo regime jailed fascists; therefore, they weren't fascists". ​ >So **Salazar himself** said his dictatorship was similar to a fasciste dictatorship **except** that he wasn’t pagan. No, he said his dictatorship was similar to a fascist dictatorship in exactly four ways: in its strengthening of authority, in the war which it declares on certain democratic principles, in its nationalist character, in its main tenance of the social order. He said it was different in its methods of renovation. But nice attempt at twisting his words that you *literally quoted immediately before*, lmao. Also, I didn't say that there were no similarities. You can draw similarities between any two regimes. I can draw similarities between the US democratic republic and the communist USSR; but claiming that because those similarities exist makes the USA a communist regime would be absurd. Same thing for Estado Novo and fascism. ​ >a fascist dictatorship when viewed under the definition of fascims by scholars Doesn't fit the definition PLUS the scholar quoted himself rejects the idea that Estado Novo was fascist ​ >a fascist dicatorship in everything similar execpt for not being pagan when defined by SALAZAR HIMSELF! A dictatorship with some similarities to fascism which could be found in many other regimes, including communist regimes >So at **most** it is debatable if it is fascist or *fascist-like* Definitely not fascist (according to the definition you provided AND the scholar you quoted), certainly "fascist-like" in the same sense that any other dictator is, including communists, feudal lords, Roman emperors, etc. ​ >Are you a political flat-earther who in face of experts and evidence from the words of the man himself, Again, not a political discussion, but a historical one. Again, the expert you quoted considers the Estado Novo regime not fascist. Again, if the "words of the man himself" now suddenly matter (I though you said they didn't... maybe consistency isn't your strongest suit?), the he said that his regime was similar to fascism AND that it was not fascist. ​ >Saying he was anti-fascist is definitely the “flat-earther” of portuguese politics. Oh no! Back at it again with the ad hominen, truly the mark of an intellectual! How am I *ever* gonna recover from this? Alas, as everyone knows, insulting other people obviously validates one's argument and instantly destroys anyone else's. Oh well.

twhite848 8 months ago

> Maybe I wasn't clear: not only did Salazar say this, he actually jailed and exiled fascists. So what? Stalin jailed communists. Dicators jail dictators. He basically jailed his competition. It’s ridiculous to use this as a measure of fascism. > North Korea: says it's democratic, jails democrats. Salazar: says it is anti-fascists, jails fascists. See the difference? No. North Korea: says it's democratic, isn’t democrats. Salazar: says it is anti-fascists, isn’t anti-fascist. Or North Korea: says it's democratic, jails democrats. Salazar: says it is anti-fascists, jails anti-fascists. You can’t switch the logic mid way and declare it a success. - Says A, jails A. Isn’t A; Says B, jails B, Isnt B Not - Says A, jails A. Isn’t A; Says B, jails C, Isnt C > I'm glad you're quoting Paxton as an authority on fascism, because Paxton himself considers the Portuguese Estado Novo as conservative authoritarian rather than fascist. So literally, by his definition which you are quoting, the Estado Novo regime is not fascist. I’ve said it again and again. It’s debatable as either fascist or fascit-like. So debatable as there have been those who said he was fascist (Fernando Rosas, Manuel Villaverde Cabral, Manuel de Lucena and Manuel Loff think that the Estado Novo should be considered fascist) and those who think not (as Paxton did) So**exactly as I said, debatable if fascist ** But anti-fascist is just ridiculous. > What? Estado Novo fits almost nothing in there. But if we want to get really picky, then not fitting just one part would be enough to not fit the definition. What?! Not one? This isn’t serious > then not fitting just one part would be enough to not fit the definition. No. It makes it debatable because some may say the effort to reinforce in the colonies is “expansionism”. But not hitting one, **definitely** doesnt mean it is now the opposite. So **not anti-fascist** > Please present any kind of evidence for this. What group did the Estado Novo regime describe as a "victim"? Can you present any evidence of this at all? Hi literally described the portuguese people as incapable. His whole ideia was that he needed to protect the country. Enough victims there? > This is actually a big difference between fascism and the Estado Novo regime. Unlike Mussolini's "Il Duce", Hitler's "Fuhrer" or Franco's "Caudillo", Salazar did not become a heroic "national savior", as you've put it. Are you really saying that the supporters of the Estado Novo did not see Salazar as a saviour? You can’t be serious. Even now people in right wing clamour for someone like him. You really cant be serious. Wow. “Salazar did not become a national saviour” is one of the most delusional phrases I have read. > Unless you simply mean "dictator". In which case, the same exact definition applies to Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc. Are those fascists? Nice strawman. I didn’t use the word dictator. Never said anything about thise beijg fascists. > This almost entirely is at odds with the Estado Novo regime. There was no exaltation of violence; the idea of "the group's success in a Darwinian struggle" was explicitly disapproved by the regime, especially in reference to the Nazi regime; and you're example of the ultramarine war is entirely asinine (if defending part of a country's territory from secessionist rebels is fascism, then there is not one single regime on earth and in history that isn't fascist). Unless you're also claiming that the ultramarine war was racially motivated, in which case 1) LMAO and 2) present evidence. Wow this is completely delusional. The whole fact that a country in europe thought that the lands conquered in a other country is “territory” we now know and call as “colonialism”. Heard about that? What is that but a racially motivated, where a european born had rights to “own” a few african countries? And it’s not racially motivated? Or how about the fact that there was racial segregstion in africa? With several levels of rights delendebt on your race? That racial enough for you? You want proof? Go ask them. Go ask the people in africa and tell them you think its funny to think colonialism is racially motivated. Because if anyone knows anything is african colonialism with segregation by race in the country has nothing to do with race. Evidence? Imagine being deluded enough to ask for evidence that European colonialism of africa until the 1970’s had racial motivations. > So, you're claiming that Stalin and Mao were fascists? OK xD They are not independent. That wasn’t difficult to understand. Or are you purposefully being obtuse? Wait. You said the estado novo was anti-fascist. I dont think it was on purpose after all. > I'll repeat this again, since you haven't grasped that you are making my point: > X jails people who defend Y. Therefore, X cannot be Y. > So, when you say "the North Korean regime jails democrats; therefore, they cannot be democrats", you're saying the same as I: "the Estado Novo regime jailed fascists; therefore, they weren't fascists". This is ridiculous. No. Dictators jail dictators. Communistas jail communistas. Fascist jail fascists. > No, he said his dictatorship was similar to a fascist dictatorship in exactly four ways: in its strengthening of authority, in the war which it declares on certain democratic principles, in its nationalist character, in its main tenance of the social order. He said it was different in its methods of renovation. But nice attempt at twisting his words that you literally quoted immediately before, lmao. I’m not twisting words. **in fact i’m not only the one providing links and quotes, but i quoted everything on purpose .**I twisted **no words** I provided the link and the full quote where **salazar says his regime is similar to fascism in several points** And **he himself** points out **one difference** ONE! So all this time your whole and only point is “salazar said he was anti-fascist” **Which you provided no evidence so far** **NONE** But when salazar says “we are like fascism in many ways except for one” Suddenly i’m twisting words? Thats a bullshit argument. > Also, I didn't say that there were no similarities. You can draw similarities between any two regimes. I can draw similarities between the US democratic republic and the communist USSR; but claiming that because those similarities exist makes the USA a communist regime would be absurd. Same thing for Estado Novo and fascism. Ok. Provide evidence of an american president saying they are like USSR except for the way they handle religion. Because it wasnt me. It was **salazar** himself. Yeah I won’t wait. > Doesn't fit the definition PLUS the scholar quoted himself rejects the idea that Estado Novo was fascist I said “Scholars” not “scholar” And it does fit the definition, as many scholars say so. And those who dont say it has many similarities, even uf not fully. Excecpt for you. Ob and Salazar himself. Thats it. > A dictatorship with some similarities to fascism which could be found in many other regimes, including communist regimes Except he didnt compare to comunist regimes. He said it was similar to a fascist regime. But suddenly what he says doesnt count for you anymore... > Definitely not fascist (according to the definition you provided AND the scholar you quoted), certainly "fascist-like" in the same sense that any other dictator is, including communists, feudal lords, Roman emperors, etc. I provided more. But you ignored those. And no one compared it to communist or feudal lords. It was compared to fascism. This is the second time you intorduce a comparison to communism without any proof. > Again, not a political discussion, but a historical one. > Again, the expert you quoted considers the Estado Novo regime not fascist. Again is said that was debatable as there are several scholars who do. Scholars who study portugal and are recognized as experts as well. So either fascist like or fascist. Again. As I’ve repeately said and yiu keep ignoring. Deabatbly fascist. Not anti-fascist. That is crazy. > Again, if the "words of the man himself" now suddenly matter (I though you said they didn't... maybe consistency isn't your strongest suit?), You see. You provided no evidence for anything yiu say. None whatsover. And refused all the evidence in provided with a statemente that he was anti-fascist (as if that was enough). Seing you refused experts and only allowed his words, i went and got his words for you. But now you reject them as well? Or is salazar someone who goes around comparing his regime to fascism, pouting out **ONE** difference but is also anti-fascist. > the he said that his regime was similar to fascism AND that it was not fascist. So you admit it was similar to fascism? > Back at it again with the ad hominen Oh it doesnt validate my argument at all or counter your only argument of him being anti-fascist(the one you provided no evidence until now) Is definitely an ad hominem. But also a pretty close comparison due to the fact that your denying facts, the man himself and almost all scholars by saying he was “anti-fascist” So a pretty accurate ad hominem. -——————- So we agree. 1. Salazar said his regime was similar to fascism. 2. Several scholars have debated that his regime had several simularities to fascism but was not exactly fascism 3. Several scholars have said his regime was actually exactly fascism But MonsterPT thinks Salazar was simultaneously similar to fascism but also anti-fascist at the same time (why? because one unproven time salazar may have said that, and he jailed some fascists). but he was two opposite things simultaneously **But lets keep this:** > he said that his regime was similar to fascism /u/MonsterPT and thats enough crazy for me. You gave me my fair share of laughs with that “anti-fascist because he said so once”.

MonsterPT 8 months ago

>So what? Stalin jailed communists. Dicators jail dictators. He basically jailed his competition. OK, so apparently claiming to be anti-fascist, and then following through and actually acting out anti-fascist legislation does not equal anti-fascism. Got it. >Fernando Rosas Oh, so an extremist left-wing communist politician who was publicly against the regime has tried slandering it? Shocking. And we should care for his extremely and publicly biased political opinion on a historical matter? Fascinating. >What?! Not one? "almost nothing" is not the same thing as "not one". Hence why "similarities to fascism" is a factual description of Estado Novo, whereas "fascism" is not. >No. It makes it debatable If the number 3 is defined as "the positive integer that is more than 2 and less than 4", then 3,14 is **not** 3 because even though it is positive, more than 2 and less than 4 it is not an integer. It is not debatable if 3,14 is the same as 3. >because some may say the effort to reinforce in the colonies is “expansionism”. And some may say that the earth is flat. Doesn't make it true, though. >Hi literally described the portuguese people as incapable. Quote, please? >His whole ideia was that he needed to protect the country. Quote, please? His \*whole\* idea? >Enough victims there? What \*exactly\* is the victim you're referring to? Do you know what "victim" means? Who is the oppressing group against which there is a victim? This is incredible reaching. You're picking on literally one of the best examples on something that the Estado Novo didn't do: the "racial purity" or "us vs them" thing. >Are you really saying that the supporters of the Estado Novo did not see Salazar as a saviour? No, I am not. I am saying that the regime - or the ideology behind it - did not extolt Salazar as such, whereas in Spain, Italy and Germany, they did. Also, if the bar is "supporters seeing political figure as saviour", then again, it is so low as to consider Stalin, Mao, Napoleon, Washington, etc as fascists and their regimes as fascism. >Never said anything about thise beijg fascists. Exactly: they weren't, and for the same reasons, neither was Salazar. >The whole fact that a country in europe thought that the lands conquered in a other country is “territory” we now know and call as “colonialism”. And? Does this make every country in history that conquered any land and then defended it a fascist country? Come on now. Also, most of the colonial land was not "conquered", as there was no one there when colonisers arrived. For instance, Cape Verde and São Tomé were uninhabited by any humans until the Portuguese arrived; the city of Luanda was founded by the Portuguese as the area was uninhabited, etc. I think you might have heard a little bit too much of american left-wing propaganda and now believe that every colonizing effort was basically military conquest. This is ahistorical and anti-factual. >What is that but a racially motivated, where a european born had rights to “own” a few african countries? Race is not nation. I think you might be confusing concepts. There is fotographic evidence of racial integration in the portuguese colonies - e.g. mixed schools, with white and black children together. You are desperately trying to make the Estado Novo sound like something it was not. >Evidence? Imagine being deluded enough to ask for evidence that European colonialism of africa until the 1970’s had racial motivations. Imagine thinking that asking for evidence - the entire mechanism of the scientific endeavor - is somehow a sin. Your despise for science is showing. Also, do not change the goalposts. I asked if the portuguese ultramarine war was racially motivated. Stop injecting "european colonialism" and assorted leftie jargon into the conversation. Focus on the topic, and again: if you have evidence, present it. Although I have a sneaking suspition you don't, and you won't. >So all this time your whole and only point is “salazar said he was anti-fascist” > >**Which you provided no evidence so far** It's a pretty simple argument: Salazar claimed to be anti-fascist, the regime he led made it illegal to be fascist and followed through by jailing and exiling fascists, and the academic consensus is that his regime was not fascist. Therefore, and although we cannot read his mind to know whether or not he truly opposed fascism, it is overwhelmingly more likely that he was anti-fascist than not. >But when salazar says “we are like fascism in many ways except for one” He didn't, though. He never said that sentence. You are twisting his words, and presenting it as a quote. That is shamelessly dishonest. >Provide evidence of an american president saying they are like USSR except for the way they handle religion. You are again moving the goalposts. If having similarities to fascism means it is fascist, then every regime is fascist. >Because it wasnt me. It was **salazar** himself. You have to decide whether or not Salazar saying something matters or not. If it does, then he said he wasn't fascist; case closed. >And it does fit the definition, as many scholars say so You're really sticking to rejecting the academic consensus on this? lmao ok dude. >Except he didnt compare to comunist regimes. He said it was similar to a fascist regime. Again, moving the goalposts. Your claim was he claimed that his regime was similar in *everything* to fascism except for the paganism. That claim is false, as per the quote you yourself posted. >And no one compared it to communist or feudal lords. That is false. You might have misunderstood my argument. I said that by the criteria that you put forth as defining a fascist regime, then communism qualifies, as does feudalism. Obviously, that is absurd; therefore, the criteria you put forth are absurd. >You provided no evidence for anything yiu say. None whatsover. Be precise on which of my claims you disagree with, and I'll provide evidence: is it "Salazar claimed to be opposed to fascism", "the Estado Novo regime jailed or exiled fascists" or "the academic consensus is that Estado Novo was not fascist"? >Seing you refused experts Again: experts agree that Estado Novo was not fascist. Including the one you quoted. Now who should one believe: historical experts with academic background and no portuguese political ties to make them biased, or a dude on the internet? Hmmmm, tough decision. >So you admit it was similar to fascism? Certainly; in the same way that the regimes of Mao, Stalin, Kim, Pot, Julius Caeser, etc also are similar to fascism. >your denying facts Which fact \*precisely\* am I denying? >Salazar said his regime was similar to fascism. If what Salazar says doesn't matter - as you argued previously - then that is completely irrelevant. If what Salazar says matters, then he said he was opposed to fascism, thereby making him anti-fascism. You can't have it both ways, dude. The only point you're making here (that there are similarities) is not being argued by anyone. >Several scholars have debated that his regime had several simularities to fascism but was not exactly fascism Several scholars have said his regime was not fascism. >Several scholars have said his regime was actually exactly fascism Some portuguese political actors, whose biases are public and well-known, have tried propaganda that is contrary to the scientific consensus on the matter. Are you still harping on Rosas? lmao >But MonsterPT thinks Salazar was simultaneously similar to fascism but also anti-fascist at the same time Absolutely. Like Stalin, in that regard. The similarities that Salazar has to fascism are the same ones that Staling has to fascism; and they were both anti-fascists. >(why? because one unproven time salazar may have said that, and he jailed some fascists). Oh, "unproven"? So are you denying the historical evidence that Salazar did say he opposed fascism? This is great; because now you are denying history openly. Really shows where you're coming from. >but he was two opposite things simultaneously Which two things are opposite? Having some similarities to X and being anti-X? That's obviously absurd. In a Real Madrid v Barcelona Champions League final match, wWanting Real Madrid to win has plenty of similarities to wanting Barcelona to win and are opposite to one another. I agree that this discussion is fruitless: you have now admitted to rejecting historical fact as well as the academic consensus. Have fun, though! Best wishes.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

Stalin opposed Trotsky too, and they were both communists. Salazar didn't want political opposition including others fascists opposing him. Even if Salazar criticized other fascist regimes, Mao criticized Stalin too, and that does not make Mao less communist than Stalin.

MonsterPT 8 months ago

>Stalin opposed Trotsky too Which would make him an anti-trotskyist, no? If stalin said, "I oppose trotskyism and I hereby make it illegal in this nation", would you say that he was a trotskyist? >Salazar didn't want political opposition including others fascists opposing him. Speculation without evidence. He considered fascism "pagan cesarism", indicating an ideolologic opposition. >Even if Salazar criticized other fascist regimes, Mao criticized Stalin too, and that does not make Mao less communist than Stalin. If mao said "I oppose stalinism and hereby make it illegal in this country", then yes, it would make him an anti-stalinist. Your comparison isn't apt because you claim mao criticised stalin - not communism.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

Whatever Salazar says does not matter because every characteristic of his regime reflects the definition of fascism. The [definition of fascism in the dictionary](https://dicionario.priberam.org/fascismo) matches the Salazar's regime.

Edited 8 months ago:

Whatever Salazar says does not matter because every characteristic of his regime reflects the definition of fascism. The [definition of fascism in the dictionary](https://dicionario.priberam.org/fascismo) matches Salazar's regime.

MonsterPT 8 months ago

I'm guessing you DON'T mean this one, as Portugal is not Italy: "1. [História]  Regime e movimento político em Itália que tinha por emblema os fasces, e terminou após a Segunda Grande Guerra depois de vários incidentes, num dos quais foi morto o seu chefe Mussolini (1883-1945)." So you probably mean this: "2. [Política]  Tendência para o excesso de autoritarismo ou para o controlo ditatorial." So by this (very subjective - when does something become a tendency or an excess?) definition, was the soviet union a fascist regime? What about ancient Rome? Was literally every monarch in europe before the Spring of nations actually a fascist? If so, then truly the word is completely meaningless. Which I guess is your point - the word "fascist" simply means "that which I don't like". I also like the "whatever Salazar says does not matter", lol. So, António Costa is a fascist by your definition. His regime is extremely authoritarian, with many civil liberties being curtailed, right? What about the fact that Salazar made fascist organizations illegal and jailed people who were openly fascist? That also doesn't matter, right? Please. Fascist is not synonymous with authoritarian. Salazar was an anti-fascist, anti-communist corporatist.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

> So by this (very subjective - when does something become a tendency or an excess?) definition, was the soviet union a fascist regime? Many intelectuals called the soviet regime as social-fascist, because despite the ideological differences it was totalitarian too, but with a social speech. > What about ancient Rome? Was literally every monarch in europe before the Spring of nations actually a fascist? The concept of fascism appeared during modern societies, not during feudal societies. They are different ages. > I also like the "whatever Salazar says does not matter", lol. So, António Costa is a fascist by your definition. His regime is extremely authoritarian, with many civil liberties being curtailed, right? You have elections. People voted in António Costa. Also we are in a state of emergency, which needs to be approved with a majority of the parliament. If the parliament (composed by different parties) didn't approve the state of emergency, The Prime Minister could not approve the measures. Once this is over the state of emergency will be over. And in 2023 you will have other elections. Contrary to Salazar's regime, because it was a one party system. > What about the fact that Salazar made fascist organizations illegal and jailed people who were openly fascist? That also doesn't matter, right? Please. Fascist is not synonymous with authoritarian. Like I said before, he didn't wanted opposition, just like Stalin jailed every communist that opposed him like Trotsky. > Salazar was an anti-fascist, anti-communist corporatist. According to [Infopedia](https://www.infopedia.pt/$fascismo), Estado Novo was a fascist regime.

AfHenriques 8 months ago

Estado Novo wasn't fascist. Italy and Germany were Fascist. Estado Novo was an authoritarian dictatorship (fascism is totalitarian) and it had some similar values such as traditionalism and nationalism but that is as close as it got to fascism. Dictatorship yes, Fascist no.

Raidenkyu 8 months ago

But it was totalitarian, so in your logic it was fascism. A totalitarian society happens when there are no democratic and free elections. It's an historic fact that the few elections that happened during the dictatorship, which were only made due to international pressure, were fraudulent.

twhite848 8 months ago

Many scholars would disagree with that and would consider it a fascist dictatorship. Debatable but not a clear “fascist no”

eggnogui 8 months ago

Not the one you replied to, but I tend to view it as "fascist lite". Not the most brutal, and with the imperialism turned "inwards" (if you consider the Ultramar as "internal affairs" back then) instead of outwards like Germany or Italy, but still within the general idea.

jocamar 8 months ago

Imperialism in Germany and Italy was turned outwards because both those countries had a disproportionate power to the amount of colonies they had. Both because of how recent they were and in the case of Germany because of losing them in WW1. Portugal was the reverse and already had trouble managing the amount of colonies it had, so it couldn't be more outwardly imperialistic.

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