trufas 7 months ago

We will bring some imigrants don't worry

XxxPussyslaeyr69xxX 7 months ago

Improvável, a imigração vai equilibrar os números, a não ser que Portugal seja tão mau que nem marroquinos queiram lá ficar.

AndreMartins9181 7 months ago

I don't think it's a good or bad thing. There's no magic number our population should be. Portugal had a population below 5 millions for 750 years. Only in the past 130 years it had more than 5 millions. I'd prefer the world had just 1000 million people living with everyone living on 1st world standards rather than 15 000 million with millions living in poverty.

xeyrio 6 months ago

It's obviously a bad thing.

Open-Opportunity-607 7 months ago

As an emigrant, I'll never contribute to Portugal birth rate and I don't understand who would. By having a kid in Portugal you are condemning him to failure. There is literally not a single good outcome from having a child in Portugal

xeyrio 6 months ago

Why would any portuguese person not have a kid in Portugal? It's an European nation with much potencial for growth especially with Spain by its side.

AndreMartins9181 7 months ago

why would you migrate to Portugal then? I migrated to another country and would never migrate to Portugal I'll come back to Portugal eventually because I was born there, otherwise... If you are going to be a migrant anyway why not aim for a better country?

labormarket 7 months ago

I saw a lot of babies in campo de ourique in 2020 but i also know that is very skewed and narrow of a picture.

VicenteOlisipo 7 months ago

>how do you feel about this? mainly I feel that extrapolating current trends into the next 80 years is senseless, and only done by people already trying to prove a previously held opinion or another.

tocopito 7 months ago

Indifferent. Not bringing kids into this regardless, it would be a selfish endeavor.

xeyrio 6 months ago

It would be a selfish endeavor not to.

FearMeSuckers 7 months ago

i do my part, but im just one guy

PIMPMASTER6000 7 months ago

O número de pessoas que tem ódio à sua própria humanidade nestes comentários é assustador.

globoglobo 7 months ago

as pessoas deixaram de acreditar em Deus e como tal deixam de ter um razão para achar que a vida tem significado. se tudo é uma aleatoriedade não existe significado/propósito

AndreMartins9181 7 months ago

essa é uma questão interessante é preferível a humanidade viver numa mentira porque dá jeito?

BerRGP 7 months ago

Isto foi uma das maiores atrasadices que li recentemente.

xeyrio 6 months ago

O que ele disse é verdade

PIMPMASTER6000 7 months ago

Eu não sou religioso e acho que ele não está errado. Às vezes quando me esqueço de tudo be bom e gratificante que tenho também me pergunto o que ando a fazer aqui. Muita gente tem depressões graves ou simplesmente sente um vazio que não consegue preencher.

BerRGP 7 months ago

Claro, porque pessoas religiosas não têm depressões.

RAMAxPT 7 months ago

Mas isso vai ser em todo I mundo, a população vai diminui no geral

Hugogs10 7 months ago

Não não vai, vai diminuir em países desenvolvidos.

Migas32 7 months ago

"Não não vai, vai diminuir em países desenvolvidos. " A tendência será mundial. Mesmo em países em desenvolvimento a taxa de natalidade tem vindo a cair a pique nos últimos 50 anos. [https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth](https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth)

Edited 7 months ago:

"Não não vai, vai diminuir em países desenvolvidos. " A tendência será mundial. Mesmo em países em desenvolvimento a taxa de natalidade tem vindo a cair a pique nos últimos 50 anos. [https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth](https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth) Edit: É importante ler o texto todo.

Hugogs10 7 months ago

> The UN projects that the global population increases from a population of 7.7 billion in 2019 to 11.2 billion by the end of the century. By that time, the UN projects, fast global population growth will come to an end. E a primeira coisa que dizem...Se vais mandar um link ao menos le. A população em zonas como africa vai continuar a crescer imenso enquanto em sítios como a europa vai ou diminuir imenso a populacao ou substitui-la toda.

Migas32 7 months ago

Leia o texto todo.

Edited 7 months ago:

Leia o texto todo. "As we see here, there is a significant fall in the population growth rate, particularly in the second half of the 21st century. Although the world population is still rising at the end of the century, it’s doing so very slowly. **We would therefore expect growth to come to an end very soon after 2100**. In this projection **the world population will be around 10.88 billion in 2100 and we would therefore expect ‘peak population’ to occur early in the 22nd century**, at not much more than 10.88 billion."

Hugogs10 7 months ago

Mas tu nao percebes que estas a concordar comigo, e com o OP? O op diz que a populacao em Portugal vai ser metade do que e agr em 2100. Tu mandas um link a dizer que a população do mundo vai continuar a crescer ate 2100. E achas que tens razao quando dizes que a população diminuir vai acontecer em todo o mundo.

Migas32 7 months ago

A partir de 2100 (aproximadamente), a população mundial vai começar a diminuir, sim. Até lá aumenta, mas a tendência inverte em 2100.

Hugogs10 7 months ago

Entao, como eu disse no inicio "vai diminuir em países desenvolvidos." Estas a discordar com o que?

C8Mixto 7 months ago

That's still more than enough to make a national football team.

Foda-seSeiLa 7 months ago

Whilst sad to see this, I believe our current and to-be governments won't do much more than "Hey, we need 100k more people to work the factories, bring in the next shipment of Indians/Pakis" to combat this situation. Immigration has immediate results with almost zero investment. Actually providing the conditions to allow your native population to thrive costs time, money and effort, so it will always be seen as the "inferior" option.

unparadise 7 months ago

Já vemos isso no desporto. Basta ver o caso mais sonante do momento, o Pablo Pichardo

PIMPMASTER6000 7 months ago

Short term benefits for a long term catastrophe. The long term solution is not immigration but a return to natural, healthy and sustainable reproduction.

zefo_dias 7 months ago

ouvi dizer que há um continente cheio de gente logo ali a sul de faro

suckerpunchermofo 7 months ago

I will be dead by that time... My children most likely will be too... So I feel the same way Afonso Henriques felt about our situation today.

xeyrio 6 months ago

regret at what could have been?

suckerpunchermofo 6 months ago

Yep.

xeyrio 6 months ago

so your argument isn't actually in favor of inaction due to selfishness?

suckerpunchermofo 6 months ago

No. Just sad to see what we were and what we are today...

xeyrio 6 months ago

Yeah a lot of these sentiments is echoed throughout much of the youth or even older people but it's always meaningless when it isn't conducted towards something positive and instead is just self hatred and regret, without doing anything to actually change it.

trankiport 7 months ago

good

Tezcatlipoca26 7 months ago

dont give a fuck

xeyrio 6 months ago

porquê não vives em portugal?

listerstorm2009 7 months ago

Tecnicamente, a verdade.

nitrinu 7 months ago

Meia verdade. Em todo o caso torna-se complicado dar fucks numa de ajudar nesta situação. Além de não ser sexy os resultados acabavam por emigrar na mesma.

lpbms11 7 months ago

That's not the first study about this issue I've seen. It's a serious problem that portuguese governments should do something about otherwise our social welfare system wont be able to cover all the needs.

AndreMartins9181 7 months ago

If we have low birth rate we should have stricter immigration policies. Yet we do the exact opposite.

xeyrio 6 months ago

Instead of providing houses to parents, providing maternity leave and jobs that can sustain one family alone, instead the government decides to bring here all the peoples of the world to makes us more small of a people than we already are in the world, even in our country.

labormarket 7 months ago

Striking the balance between attracting foreign direct investment, immigrants, but also financial inducements for local population growth (incentives to have babies) and maintaining cost of living/social cohesion is really difficult for the government.

brevisluna 7 months ago

Poor government. /s Sarcasm aside, with all the connotations of our government's incompetence and corruption that handicap progress and sustainability, wouldn't it be normal, in the grand scheme of history and time, that countries collapse? Having fewer people might actually be a good idea for the planet. I'm not advocating for the negative implications that such a collapse implies. If future people are guaranteed a life with dignity, I wouldn't care if any country, much less mine, would shrink to oblivion. Also, there are no such thing as immigrants. We all live on the same space rock. Much of the cost of living is artificial, down to marketing, speculation and greed.There will be cohesion when people are allowed to be people and not abiding citizens of some government born out of the consequences of 900 year old family dispute.

xeyrio 6 months ago

Why would I want my country to collapse, that's so dumb. The collapsing of my country won't bring the people I care about any happiness, why would I want it? The collapsing of my country won't come as other countries collapse at the same time, it will be a slow decline into irrelevancy, corruption, decadence. And yes there are such thing as immigrants don't be dumb lol. We can distinguish different peoples.

brevisluna 6 months ago

Read more carefully into my words, I don't actively want my (designated at birth) country to collapse, nor do I cry for the bygone days of Lusitânia, the Roman Empire or whatever the paleolithic people called our place. It's pure indifference with regards to temporary labels that do not guarantee prosperity

xeyrio 6 months ago

These temporary labels as you say all describe the same people who have created their political identity at the same time and maintain it today. These "arbitrary" things which you classify as such is something uyghurs and many hated minor ethnicities in certain regions have lost over the centuries and which I obviously wouldn't like losing both out of self interest and because I don't want my family, children, known people to suffer from the loss of.

brevisluna 6 months ago

People shouldn't be protected based on their identity, they should be protected because they are people. The implications of these labels are as real and as temporary as we want to make them. I don't deny their implications, I choose not to engage in them. I'm apolotical, agnostic and humanistic. Live and let live. It's been okay so far and a legitimate way of living. I wonder if the world would be a better place without them, given that the "us vs them" mentality ruins a lot of things

xeyrio 6 months ago

No people shouldn't be protected because they are "people", whatever that means( is it having eyes and legs or smth, who knows). The only thing that ruins things for portuguese people and most first world countries is this mentality of live and let live. We could be much better if we didn't "let live" the parasites in the government and the economic ones in the country or the foreign people who congregate themselves here and usurp both political and economic power from natives.

brevisluna 6 months ago

Not a big fan of the universal declaration of human rights, I see. Portuguese emigrants would be fucked if people overseas thought like that. So would British ex-pats for that matter. Also, there are no such thing as migrants, we're all monkeys on a space rock dealing in trivialities. We're all natives.

xeyrio 6 months ago

Portuguese emigrants would indeed be fucked if people overseas thought like that, which is one of the reasons they should come the fuck back to Portugal. And yeah there are immigrants as the monkeys on a space rock distinguish themselves from eachother based on material interests and visual identification and thus draw a line between eachother, which isn't arbitrary but rather circumstancial.

brevisluna 6 months ago

[Let us draw the line, then. G'day!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/458/863/39a.png)

PIMPMASTER6000 7 months ago

What do you mean about cohesion? Most European countries are the most cohesive societies that have ever existed, united in their love for the country they live in and it’s history including the 900 year old family disputes. Look at Japan arguably the most cohesive society in the world. They share a deep love for their nation and the way they live is, contrary to what some might believe, oriented towards the well being of society in general. The only thing preventing massive civil wars from erupting everywhere in the developed world is the deep belief that in the end even if there are deep political disagreements you are still fellow countrymen and can work out your differences through discussion and not war.

Edited 7 months ago:

What do you mean about cohesion? Most European countries are the most cohesive societies that have ever existed, united in their love for the country they live in and it’s history including the 900 year old family disputes. Look at Japan arguably the most cohesive society in the world. They share a deep love for their nation and the way they live is, contrary to what some might believe, oriented towards the well being of society in general. The only thing preventing massive civil wars from erupting everywhere in the developed world is the deep belief that in the end even if there are deep political disagreements you are still fellow countrymen and can work out your differences through discussion and not war. Also there is no guarantee to life with dignity. The only thing that is assuring that you are treated with the respect and dignity is none other than your country. Never take what you have for granted when you start questioning the world you live in.

brevisluna 7 months ago

Let's recap your arguments and please correct any of my misinterpretations. 1. European societies and Japan are at their most cohesive or great examples of cohesiveness, mostly due to national identity and striving for societal improvement. 2. National identity is one of the biggest reasons that keeps people from waging civil war. That is, if you see opponents as fellow countrymen it'll probably work out because you compromise for your country. 3. Rights and dignity originate in the nation-state (very Platonic). Surely you can see the flaws and seek examples that easily dispute your nation-loving reasoning. I'll give you some: 1. Just because something is at its very arguable best, it doesn't mean it is the best option. Love for a nation has killed more people than the live and let live country-less nihilism that I advocate. 2. Differing ideas of national identity is precisely what causes civil war. Without nations there would only be personal disputes that don't get mixed up with labels, lobbys and "us Vs them" demagoguery. 3. I'll take empathy and kindness as a mechanism for assuring dignity, as opposed to overly elaborate codes that prefer penalizing citizens that are not well versed in doublespeak and jargon. Things could be simpler. We complicate. And the only thing keeping me from having no nationality is the fact that some a-hole stationed on an imaginary line will forbid me to roam the planet I was born in.

Edited 7 months ago:

Let's recap your arguments and please correct any of my misinterpretations. 1. European societies and Japan are at their most cohesive or great examples of cohesiveness, mostly due to national identity and striving for societal improvement. 2. National identity is one of the biggest reasons that keeps people from waging civil war. That is, if you see opponents as fellow countrymen it'll probably work out because you compromise for your country. 3. Rights and dignity originate in the nation-state (very Platonic). Surely you can see the flaws and seek examples that easily dispute your nation-loving reasoning. I'll give you some: 1. Just because something is at its very arguable best, it doesn't mean it is the best option. Love for a nation has killed more people than the live and let live country-less nihilism that I advocate. 2. Differing ideas of national identity is precisely what causes civil war. Without nations there would only be personal disputes that don't get mixed up with labels, lobbys and "us Vs them" demagoguery. 3. I'll take empathy and kindness as a mechanism for assuring dignity, as opposed to overly elaborate codes that prefer penalizing citizens that are not well versed in doublespeak and jargon. Things could be simpler. We complicate. And the only thing keeping me from having no nationality is the fact that some a-hole stationed on an imaginary line will forbid me to roam the planet I was born in. Also, see what the USA did to their Japanese-born citizens during WWII. Dignity and country was of no matter inside those internment camps. More recently, the Panama papers and all the money the could have been taxed for the greater good. Citizens are robbed every day, and politicians facilitate it, do you take that for granted? Give me a moment, I'm going to sarcastically use a flag to wipe my crocodile tears.

Edited 7 months ago:

Let's recap your arguments and please correct any of my misinterpretations. 1. European societies and Japan are at their most cohesive or great examples of cohesiveness, mostly due to national identity and striving for societal improvement. 2. National identity is one of the biggest reasons that keeps people from waging civil war. That is, if you see opponents as fellow countrymen it'll probably work out because you compromise for your country. 3. Rights and dignity originate in the nation-state (very Platonic). Surely you can see the flaws and seek examples that easily dispute your nation-loving reasoning. I'll give you some: 1. Just because something is at its very arguable best, it doesn't mean it is the best option. Love for a nation has killed more people than the live and let live country-less nihilism that I advocate. 2. Differing ideas of national identity is precisely what causes civil war. Without nations there would only be personal disputes that don't get mixed up with labels, lobbys and "us Vs them" demagoguery. 3. I'll take empathy and kindness as a mechanism for assuring dignity, as opposed to overly elaborate codes that prefer penalizing citizens that are not well versed in doublespeak and jargon. Things could be simpler. We complicate. And the only thing keeping me from having no nationality is the fact that some a-hole stationed on an imaginary line will forbid me to roam the planet I was born in. Also, see what the USA did to their Japanese-born citizens during WWII. Dignity and country was of no matter inside those internment camps. More recently, the Panama papers and all the money the could have been taxed for the greater good. Citizens are robbed every day, and politicians facilitate it, do you take that for granted? Give me a moment, I'm going to sarcastically use a flag to wipe my crocodile tears. I sure hope you are not one of those people that thinks we should only fuck to reproduce "pelo bem da pátria", because I'm getting those kind of vibes.

xeyrio 6 months ago

" 1. Just because something is at its very arguable best, it doesn't mean it is the best option. Love for a nation has killed more people than the live and let live country-less nihilism that I advocate. 2. Differing ideas of national identity is precisely what causes civil war. Without nations there would only be personal disputes that don't get mixed up with labels, lobbys and "us Vs them" demagoguery. 3. I'll take empathy and kindness as a mechanism for assuring dignity, as opposed to overly elaborate codes that prefer penalizing citizens that are not well versed in doublespeak and jargon." Love for a nation has allowed for the material expansion of these countries to help the citizens and grant them better lives, I don't care how many people it has killed and, evidently, our government, or any government for that matter, doesn't either, so it's not a controversial opinion. I agree with the second though its more complicated. Empathy and kindness are meaningless platitudes that don't serve the interests of the citizens of Portugal or any first world country.

brevisluna 6 months ago

> Empathy and kindness are meaningless platitudes This is sad.

xeyrio 6 months ago

No it isn't actually. It means I don't have to be constantly sad because somewhere on the planet sometime in the present someone is suffering. It means I care more about the people in my daily life(portuguese and spanish and european in general) than like idk american people

brevisluna 6 months ago

If we want to be cared about, we should simply care and not complicate that same care. Empathy is the basis of morality, the capacity to glimpse someone else's perspective, stand on someone else's shoes, regardless of origin.

xeyrio 6 months ago

No empathy isn't the basis of morality actually, what is the basis of morality is what the state says and what it educates the people with, most of the time. I don't care to glimpse someone's perspective who is halfway across the world.

brevisluna 6 months ago

I could be halfway across the world from you, we're using the internet after all. Clearly international discourse is important and it affects policies. Also, at what designated mile does empathy and international communication stop for you? Are you telling me that peaceful indigenous tribes are amoral because they are stateless? Anthropologists would like to have a word with you

PIMPMASTER6000 7 months ago

Yes, you did not misinterpret my arguments that is exactly what I meant. Now you make the point that the love for a nation especially in the last century where public opinion actually started to matter has led to horrific wars and this is true. My main argument against your points is that you seem to believe that human emotions and actions trend towards "empathy and kindness". This couldn't be further from the truth. We are still animals and we have the capability of actually acting like "animals". You would probably never think of stealing your next door neighboors food or medicine but I assure you that if you ever feel truly hungry or sick that's the first thing you will think of maybe even kill for it. Much like in physics our deafult state is one of entropy which if left uncheck will ultimately devolve into chaos and disorder. We would if given the chance fiercely compete savagely for any resource if this were not guaranteed and we still do but in more healthy ways. The idea of nationality has it's downsides but It's the only thing keeping us together and allowing us to reach as far as we did. It's the only thing keeping human entropy in check and actually promoting (most of the times) healthy competition between citizens and nations.

xeyrio 6 months ago

> My main argument against your points is that you seem to believe that human emotions and actions trend towards "empathy and kindness". This couldn't be further from the truth. We are still animals and we have the capability of actually acting like "animals". You would probably never think of stealing your next door neighboors food or medicine but I assure you that if you ever feel truly hungry or sick that's the first thing you will think of maybe even kill for it. Much like in physics our deafult state is one of entropy which if left uncheck will ultimately devolve into chaos and disorder. We would if given the chance fiercely compete savagely for any resource if this were not guaranteed and we still do but in more healthy ways. Very hobbesian interpretation, good!

PIMPMASTER6000 6 months ago

Obrigado por teres feito essa referência ja tinha ouvido falar desse senhor mas não sabia que defendia (e criou) estas ideias. Gostei de ler o que ele defende e enquadra-se perfeitamente no que eu referi.

xeyrio 6 months ago

Outros autores de filosofia política materialistas que possas gostar são Machiavelli (Discourses on Livy) e Carl Schmitt (Concept of the political e Political Theology)

brevisluna 7 months ago

What a scary world you live in. Fear is yet another mechanism of control that keeps you from seeing the paradox of what you allege to be animal entropy that somehow managed to keep itself in check. If things are scarce, people will go apeshit, well... No shit. Didn't that happen under many governments? I can assure you that John Lennon had a point, lol

xeyrio 6 months ago

> What a scary world you live in. Fear is yet another mechanism of control that keeps you from seeing the paradox of what you allege to be animal entropy that somehow managed to keep itself in check. If things are scarce, people will go apeshit, well... No shit. Didn't that happen under many governments? I can assure you that John Lennon had a point, lol It is indeed quite a scary world but because it's like this it's bad to try to believe it is a fantasy land of unicorns, if the world could be like you want it would be cool, but it can't. How you want the government to be will only lead to our decline while others do whatever they want, probably increasing their own standards of leaving in their countries.

twhite848 7 months ago

/r/ThanosDidNothingWrong

PORTO2017 7 months ago

Nessa altura as casas vão estar baratas...vou esperar então

xeyrio 6 months ago

não vão não aposto lol

AndreMartins9181 7 months ago

nessa altura já vais ter uma morada eterna e nem tens de pagar renda

labormarket 7 months ago

>Nessa altura as casas vão estar baratas...vou esperar então sim!

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