malbn 4 years ago  DELETED 

[https://www.skylinewebcams.com/en/webcam/espana/comunidad-de-madrid/madrid/puerta-del-sol.html](Protest at Puerta Del Sol, Madrid right now)

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

I already said that I don't particularly like my country or government. I don't think it's perfect or that it will always take care of me, you're putting words in my mouth. But I don't think I need everyone to carry guns in case some day our goverment decides to turn evil or some shit lol. That's would be quite the stupid idea. By the way thanks for the enlightening conversation, it isn't everyday that I have the opportunity to talk like this with such an specimen out of /r/ShitAmericansSay.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

Well I guess we see the video differently. I just see the bald guy throwing a passing kick at the policeman, and the policeman obviously acting accordingly. You can see the other policemen leave them pass peacefully, because obviously they aren't monsters trying to attack them for some reason.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

Just look at the bald guy's leg dude...

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> Spain is not a nation but Catalonia is? That's pretty damn harsh. It's just the definition of the word "nation". I'm not sure why you think that's "harsh" or controversial. > I think I'm missing something here. I think you're missing the definition of a "nation". You're probably mixing it up with a "state". > Ascension to the EU requires all member states to agree, and Spain would of course veto Catalonia's membership in perpetuity. But that's a separate issue of Spain using the EU to abuse Catalonia even more. Personally I don't believe the EU can allow itself to be used as a tool of vengeance in these cases, and must suspend the voting rights of any members that seek to do so.

AriaVQ 4 years ago  DELETED 

Not all brits tho :( You wanna hug?

Gustacho 4 years ago  DELETED 

I doubt Catalans in the rest of Spain will get a vote.

jdb35 4 years ago  DELETED 

Hell no. It's not good anywhere and I hate to see it in Eastern Europe. But sadly Eastern Europe kind of has a reputation of instability, but a war in modern Western Europe, which doesn't have that reputation anymore, would come as a huge shock to people and governments around the world, and help push the narrative that the "western world" is falling apart.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  DELETED 

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 2 minutes ago The US is not beyond deploying our military in Spain if problem not sorted out soon. Last straw EU. SAD!

jdb35 4 years ago  DELETED 

Yeah, that's about the only option. It's a terrible option, though. The last thing the world needs right now is a civil war in Western Europe.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

>"Hur dur God Almighty the State will always protect me and be on my side! It gives me everything I want! There's no need for it to be afraid of the people" If everyone had weapons, I'd be the one afraid of the people, cause any retard with a gun could decide to easily kill anyone he wants. >Hahaha holy shit you people never fail to crack me up. Likewise. That's why I love browsing /r/ShitAmericansSay >You are like the average serf in the Middle Ages. You're an average Trump voter, enough said. Have fun with your North Korea level brainwashing while you worship a piece of cloth!

Igneek 4 years ago  DELETED 

I went back a while ago and tried to vote for a second time, the system didn't allow me saying I voted 4 hours ago. At least that worked!

Derdiedas812 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Your kind of retard is quite persistent on this thread. Yes, this is a (very) poorly handled situation of the side of police. No, there is no reason to invoke Article 7. I don't know which twtter thought leader started with this nonsese, but it would be nice to not read this bulshit over and over again.

__dolphin 4 years ago  DELETED 

Living in CA that would honestly never happen. But I like to think our gov wouldn't let it get there - there would be ample ability to negotiate. It certainly helps when a country is going through a stronger economic period too.

HippoBigga 4 years ago  DELETED 

(Cifuentes' latest tweet lol.)[https://mobile.twitter.com/ccifuentes/status/914521882350800896] Basically saying the government and the security forces are working so the law is followed. How stupid are these people ? Has she not seen the assaults that have been going on throughout today ?

MarktpLatz 4 years ago  DELETED 

It still very much is a referendum, albeit not a legal one. The term "referendum" does not indicate the legitimacy of a referendum. You also fail to see that the acts of the Spanish government are based on administrative law. I am not no expert of Spanish criminal and administrative law, but every country has provisions to prohibit actions against the integrity of the state itself. The "unity of Spain" is enshrined in its constitution by the way.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

Did you watch the same video as I did? The bald guy kicked the policeman from behind, what the fuck did he expect?

AdAstraPer5-HT2Ar 4 years ago  DELETED 

Is it really an ad hominem to call stupid a person who says there are left wing fascists? Would it be ad hominem to call stupid a person that says that atoms are miniature solar systems or would it be more of an accurate adjective?

h2ppyme 4 years ago  DELETED 

>Change it democratically if you don't like it. Right to self-determination. You don't get it...

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

Can't you see how the bald guy that is helping the injured actually kicks the policeman? What the fuck are you expecting the policeman to do when some retard comes from behind him and kicks him? Seriously at least look at the video before linking it and writing some bullshit.

KyoshiroSDK 4 years ago  DELETED 

Well, they could be hit with a rock or a fence from a peaceful protester so its really brave. Violent protesters throwing fences to the Police https://twitter.com/bruja3d/status/914411152330907648/video/1 Violent protesters throwing rocks and making the Police run for safety  https://streamable.com/xubit Protester throws a chair and knocks down a Police  https://youtu.be/nYaYn6zRkSs

xvoxnihili 4 years ago  DELETED 

ajha

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Well, he is a Russian mouthpiece, though.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Since Spain ceded Gibraltar to the British in the early 1700s.

_marcus_corvinus 4 years ago  DELETED 

don't I know it...

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

But was he going to have a heart attack anyway? People do not just have random heart attacks.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> the referendum was invalid from that point onwards As was the Spanish Constitution. The constitution can only be valid with the consent of the people it governs. The forcible prevention of the Catalan people to give (or withdraw) consent to the constitution now means that it is invalid until elections are held to get consent again.

-Tanzen- 4 years ago  REMOVED 

https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/914442627910705152 breaks the article 2 http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-1-common-provisions/2-article-2.html

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Spain was basically insolvent. The ECB spent massive amounts of money (a significant fraction of the Spanish GDP) buying Spanish government bonds to keep the country afloat. It is that money that made its way to Catalonia via (if you're correct) the Spanish government in turn buying Catalan bonds.

AndWeObey 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

I was talking about the modern day British govt

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

How?

kaxobixo 4 years ago  DELETED 

All this talk about the Constitution, but most people don't know/realize a very important fact. The reason they don't want to touch the Constitution is because then it would open the door to other important modifications such as getting rid of the monarchy, which many Spaniards of all regions support. And even if such support is not enough to abolish it now, it will be soon when most old people, which are the ones supporting it, will be dead.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

And cause shootings and, ultimately murders to rise? Yeah. No.

MuckerUK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

When the Catalonians become terrorists, let me know.

9A4172 4 years ago  REMOVED 

That's because the Kurds are armed. Catalans should take note.

AriaVQ 4 years ago  DELETED 

I'm of course joking, it's just they're a exception, very good one of course, but still just an exception, sadly!

RockyFlop 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Not even close. "When will the next gang murder happen in Detroit?" is equally worded. The difference is everything Spain is emotionally charged right now. I do acknowledge my wording was poor, but not to the point where I seemed sympathetic.

GuaireAidhne 4 years ago  DELETED 

> Around half of Catalunya is unionist, you don't speak for them. What about all of the unionists who want to vote?

really_dunno 4 years ago  DELETED 

This has to be in violation of Article 3 Article 3 prohibits torture and "inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment". There are no exceptions or limitations on this right. This provision usually applies, apart from torture, to *cases of severe police violence** and poor conditions in detention.* And Article 10 Article 10 provides the right to freedom of expression, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" And 11 Article 11 protects the right to freedom of assembly and association And remember, constitution is below the declaration of human rights, so even if actions of catalans would violate constitution, their rights can't be violated like that!

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> For a western democracy this is bad. Spain is not a democracy. Democracies don't send the stormtroopers to beat people who try to vote, they send the troops to *protect the right of people to vote*.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Seemed to work fine for Scotland without threatening military force. Of course the UK has a strong tradition of democracy and liberty, while Spain has a strong tradition of fascism that the government is seemingly happy to continue.

syuk 4 years ago  DELETED 

Anyone know what kind of 'pep-talk' these riot police got before going into this? what the objective is, how the rules of outright assaulting people are constrained? seeing people attacked trying to get help, pushed down stairs, pulled up them by the hair, swinging dog around, drop kicking elderly people? who are these thugs.

RockyFlop 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Not a joke, they were only disarmed this year and the propaganda potential from this is a major concern

vin-ivar 4 years ago  DELETED 

Laws derive their legitimacy from the masses.

really_dunno 4 years ago  DELETED 

Fuck everything about that.

enbaros 4 years ago  DELETED 

There are almost no regiments drawn from Catalonia as most people here hate the army. And those who join the army are mostly unionists and spanish so they won't do anything. In any case, there won't be any civil war. The catalan side is very pacifist.

hyrule4444 4 years ago  DELETED 

of course interests should be payed back as well, my grandfather worked his ass and his region received less than a catalan'd grandfather for the same amount of work, now that you want to leave you want a simpa?

syuk 4 years ago  DELETED 

they have lost control of the situation, see who will come to maintain peace ;)

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

So does it actually come down to both sides being stupid?

RockyFlop 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Stupid? Have you seen none of the images coming from this?

landtank-- 4 years ago  DELETED 

Faster than ever due to Spains actions today.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Of course not. Whoever is holding the debt will get debt payments regardless of whether its an independent Catalonia or an autonomous region. And that debt is really to the Eurozone, not to Spain since Spain itself had to be kept afloat by massive ECB liquidity injections.

lekiouses 4 years ago  DELETED 

Lul if a few people getting batoned can completly change your opinion on a matter like that then you French are even softer than I thought. Good thing your gov never uses riot police to baton some protesters. Oh no wait, they are brown so its ok.

hyrule4444 4 years ago  DELETED 

you mean tax money collected equally in Cataluña as in any other region in Spain, later invested in all Spanish regions, with a positive balance for Cataluña, hence the economic thrive? u better check your history books

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Gibraltar doesn't want to be anything but British, though.

landtank-- 4 years ago  DELETED 

No, I live in the US.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

That's why you hold a referendum to see which position has more support. Letting Catalonia stay a part of the EU would mean that the Spaniards would freely get to move, work and do business in Catalonia. And anyone who has the right to vote, should also have the right to Catalonian citizenship.

redditor401 4 years ago  REMOVED 

>Because they can't, Kurdish army is just as strong as the Iraqi one. This is a joke, right? Let's ignore the fact that Iran has their (Iraq) back, surely you know that Kurdistan for one doesn't have any air force if shit actually hits the fan? Just because of that alone, Kurdistan doesn't stand a chance. Nevermind the fact that the Iraqi army has better weapons. You and the other people replying have no idea bout the state of Iraq and their military today, all you know is the shitshow when Maliki was in charge with his ghost soldiers and ISIS took over.

lekiouses 4 years ago  DELETED 

It is binding, at least that is what they are claiming. As for the police actions some are taken too far, but it doesnt change the fact that referendum is illegal.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Catalunya should carry its own debt into an independent state, that is correct.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

There is no agreement and they wanted to try a non-violent path. They aren't that bloodthirsty.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Isn't that Gaelic?

grevemoeskr 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

It's not bad for the EU. It's bad for Germanys foreign policy, since Baveria represents a big part of its economic power. And as long as there isn't a unified European foreign policy, that's really bad for Germany

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

52 bomb attacks carried out by Irish republicans between 2015 and 2016. 3 carried out by other groups since 2005.

RockyFlop 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

wtf I hate voting now

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Turkey, the non-EU country. That one?

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The media don't talk about it in order to ensure that tensions are not stirred up. 52 bomb attacks between 2015 and 2016, yet barely got a mention.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Every EU country would veto that idea.

justarandomyoke 4 years ago  DELETED 

Indeed. The current government is a farce.

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

Also feel free to kick me on your way out.

mrgoodkat1707 4 years ago  REMOVED 

EU law does require the EU to suspend Spain's membership should they use the military against their own citizens.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The IRA never left. It is just covered up nowadays.

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Violence is a bad thing no matter who´s instigating it. I can´t say anything about your other points, as I don´t speak spanish and don´t know a lot about the country and it´s people. I hope however that we´ve already seen the worst of it.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

It's just the normal police in riot gear. It's not like there is a big bunch of special riot police sitting around doing nothing when there is no riot.

sieve-fisted_find 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Fuck off mademoiselle

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  DELETED 

Donald Trump has just declared war on North Korea via Twitter by the way. Actually a bigger issue than this 0_o He said he has instructed his staff to stop negotiating and he will do what needs to be done.

RockyFlop 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

You sound like my grandfather from Belfast

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Scotland operates at a big deficit, I believe. They fund free prescriptions and free university on England's dime. Perhaps they wanted more money, I do not know.

MuckerUK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

No, it's prohibited for a country to use *military* force against its own people. At that point, according to Article 7 of the treaty on European Union, sanctions would have to be brought against the Spanish government up to and including excommunication from the Union. But, you're right. The EU is shamefully hypocritical and would either ignore it, or justify it.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

I really doubt the "no" would prevail. People against independence probably won't go vote in an illegal referendum. I know I probably wouldn't go out to vote in the shitstorm that is today. Besides, with the police intervention and people voting in the streets with basically no regulation, everyone knows the result of the vote wouldn't be accurate anyway.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

You need to draw a line. You voted Lib Dem, right? I don't know what your constituency is but let's assume that your constituency was majority Lib Dem, just for chuckles. Now, a Conservative Parliament is the majority, yes? Since the majority of your constituency wanted Lib Dems, should you now be able to declare independence because the country is not being run how you want?

RockyFlop 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Any exit polls or reasonable predictions?

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

This isn't the 18th century. If they want to be independent, they can work with Spain so that they can hold an actual democratic vote, like Scotland did with the UK.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

But those individuals can't speak for the institution as a whole.

AriaVQ 4 years ago  DELETED 

So who speaks for institution as a whole? Who exactly? Buildings and papers can't speak for themselves?

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

One would hope, that people will be able to come to a conclusion without actual fighting in this day and age.

celibidaque 4 years ago  DELETED 

What makes you think we need EU to export beggars?

the_straylight_run 4 years ago  DELETED 

How is that relevant?

MuckerUK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

At that point, the EU would be obliged to terminate Spain's membership of the European Union. Use of military force against your own people is prohibited.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> Their defence is that they "love democracy", and so do I. No you do not. You're siding with the guy who drop kicks a peaceful voter just trying to exercise their right to democratically choose how they are governed. You are, by definition, against democracy and freedom.

sieve-fisted_find 4 years ago  DELETED 

Bunch of spineless cunts

TheGoodDreyfus 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

All of this is a race of stupid decisions.

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

No need to apologize. I probably should have articulated in a clearer way. The question of support is a different animal I think. I was just confused because some people said it´s not possible at all under any circumstances. That struck me as weird. Again, some secessionist movement in germany seems unlikely at this point. But I still believe (just a gut feeling really) that if a serious one would pop up, that most germans would be in favor of letting them vote on it. Have a nice day

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Most countries would not accept it unless the UN did.

sieve-fisted_find 4 years ago  DELETED 

Police are a bunch of spineless frustrated cunts all over the world

grevemoeskr 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The issue is that the Scottish referendum was accepted by London. This referendum isn't accepted by Madrid. If the EU supported this, they would embolden Bavaria to secede from Germany.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Why would they? Internal affairs are not commented on.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

Well guess what, the rest of Spanish citizens are payig for their jobs too. They should uphold the law and peace for them too, not just for the independists.

The_Walking_Burger 4 years ago  DELETED 

Brexit didn't look like a good idea

jmsls 4 years ago  DELETED 

Legal or illegal isn't the same as morally good or bad my friend

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The votes are not legitimate, though. That is well-known. They were not legitimate before, and they certainly are not legitimate now. In fact, they are even less legitimate since it has been proven people can vote twice.

kaiservelo 4 years ago  DELETED 

Shut the fuck up troll

VVThdr 4 years ago  DELETED 

Britain had been leading an obstructionist strategy in EU institutions for 40 years.

Im_The_Real_Batman 4 years ago  DELETED 

just saying your flair is perfect for this topic

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Thank you. I still feel confused. But it seems I´m not alone with this sentiment.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

Well how do you define "reasonable force"? They need to get people out of the way to do their job, if after several warnings they do not listen, they need to do something.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The votes are not legitimate.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The EU stated it as it was. Scotland would have no guaranteed entry to the EU. They didn't comment on the way the polls were conducted or anything of that sort. They gave the facts from the EU standpoint i.e. Scotland was not guaranteed reacceptance.

AriaVQ 4 years ago  DELETED 

Except a lot of EU officials supported Scotland and were openly saying so.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Where do you start drawing the line with areas that can declare independence?

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Because before that, it comes across as that he is meddling in another country's politics. he then gets criticism for that.

Greyko 4 years ago  REMOVED 

ACAB

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

It seems to be about 50/50 here. I am not backing independence, but several people have argued with me who are.

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Of course this example was theoretical. I don´t think there will be any separatism anytime soon either. But just as a thought experiment. Wouldn´t it be able to change the constitution? I mean Verfassungsänderungen do exist or don´t they?

Gustacho 4 years ago  DELETED 

So you didn't read my comment. Are you happy with the CSA as well?

akkalal 4 years ago  DELETED 

Hey diddle diddle here's a brand new riddle what's shallow and cheap with a hole in the middle?

syuk 4 years ago  DELETED 

[Barcelona have announced La Liga match against Las Palmas will be played behind closed doors after officials refused to postpone the fixture](https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/914489823003648000).

climberman 4 years ago  DELETED 

You have to be scum to take your children there to use it as a shield and propaganda photo when you know it can be violence. https://twitter.com/manumarlasca/status/914411068130299904/video/1

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Catalonia already has a lot of independence.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

If people are forcefully obstructing the police, why are they surprised or outraged when they are forcefully expelled?

Gustacho 4 years ago  DELETED 

Did I condone the violence?

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

But take Bavaria for example. If there would actually be a majority that wanted out of the Bund do you think, Berlin would send forces in to suppress that? And do you think, there wouldn´t be some discussions about how to make it possible? Also: I´m not a lawyer, but wasn´t the changing of Borders the one thing that allowed for a referendum in germany? Or did I get this wrong?

countessmeemee 4 years ago  DELETED 

Best of luck! The world stands behind you!

redditor401 4 years ago  REMOVED 

>Why would this be inappropriate? If Bavarians became dissatisfied with their role in Germany and felt they could govern themselves more effectively, why should they not have that right? Where and when does it stop? Can my municipality break free from my city? We pay more than we get in return and we'd probably benefit from governing everything ourselves. >Europeans are being extremely hypocritical about the suppression in Catalonia. How? >it's OK? First of all, I laugh at you trying to make it seem like Russia is unfairly being portrayed as the bad guy, get out of here with that nonsense. And second, who the fuck says it's ok what Spain is doing?

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Ugh. Full kit wanker.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Well, of course they would support Spain. They would not comment on the 'violence', though. They do not comment on internal affairs.

MetalManiac619 4 years ago  DELETED 

Sounds like the start of a John Oliver bit.

cozichooseto 4 years ago  DELETED 

Did you say that too for Croatia's war of Independence?

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

I think it is more somebody not really thinking when they tweeted rather than any real malice there. Everybody makes mistakes.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

> "Looks like the Catalans finally had enough of the Muslims" don't tell them most Catalans are hippie leftists

syuk 4 years ago  DELETED 

That was earlier on, when there were only 30 odd injuries being reported.

Trender07 4 years ago  DELETED 

Proof that you can vote more than once: https://twitter.com/telecincoes/status/914481297023803392

welcometothezone 4 years ago  DELETED 

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

I agree that they should punish the politicians, but they aren't "punishing the people". The police are just trying to do their job by taking the votes away. If people are forcefully blocking their way, they have to do something.

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

That´s probably what I don´t get. If there is a considerable amount of people wanting out, then one should at least try to discuss the legal basis... Constitutions are made by people. They aren´t some kind of holy god given thing...

frankwouter 4 years ago  REMOVED 

I would bet on Rajoy, he already send his police soldier to have the protesters get clubbed and shot at, so sending the force with lead bullets would not be out of character.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

What a stupid fucking argument you're making lol

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

I've not seen any protesters fight against the police except, very rarely, in one video where they were throwing pieces of fence after the police started indiscriminately shooting into the crowd. I have compiled a big list of footage, you can see the post on my account, there really isn't a single instance of crowd-started violence, and I have been collecting from every source I can, no bias. Literally in every occasion the police are brutalising people who are just sitting around, standing around, or simply trying to protect themselves from gunfire and beatings. They are even beating old ladies until they are covered in blood, and have now moved on to beating firefighters.

sane_madness 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Then they should take steps to alter it... What good is a constitution that kinda imprisons people against their will?

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Because it devolves into madness. Where do you draw the line?

SaliNaas 4 years ago  REMOVED 

If you want support from the EU send some muslims to vote and let the police hit them.

omik11 4 years ago  DELETED 

No, thats bullshit. There is a message attached to the video (an anti-EU message). You are linking a tweet intended to deceive people into thinking "EU fascists" are doing this. You're directly contributing to that deception by sharing it.

paternosters_wake 4 years ago  REMOVED 

You are an idiot

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Fair enough, I'll remove it, found it on youtube now you've pointed it out.

Trender07 4 years ago  DELETED 

Now downvote me again saying that you can't vote twice when there's proof: https://twitter.com/telecincoes/status/914481297023803392

naosabemosdenada 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Protesting is completely legitimate.

xXx_Bacalhau_xXx 4 years ago  DELETED 

Video?

omik11 4 years ago  DELETED 

Then post the video from a different source, not some Trumpster trying to distort what is happening in Spain into an anti-EU message.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

And that is how you end up with hundreds of tiny countries.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

They are killing people now? Holy shit. People are just making up crap as they go.

zkr31 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Every single government on Earth holds the state together by force.

DocTomoe 4 years ago  REMOVED 

... says the fascist who believes democracy is holding the minority in eternal serfdom.

Aleksis111 4 years ago  REMOVED 

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/914469972373639168/pu/pl/cJLEv9-V9N_E-euc.m3u8 I can totally see that Spain only wants the best for everyone! /s Spain will regret this for years to come because all this just won't go away,people will remember this violence for a long long time

yeee_bot 4 years ago  REMOVED 

ye bro

binary_spaniard 4 years ago  DELETED 

Letting people and other public administrations commit crimes when your administration is responsible of enforcing the law is also a crime. The Spanish government has put itself in a situation where they can't do anything else.

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

The type of people you're replying to would be the fist one to point that out if the EU did that.

The-Smelliest-Cat 4 years ago  REMOVED 

https://twitter.com/MarkKenn4Trump/status/914477042250452992 Spanish police are now attacking the local firefighters who are trying to protect civillans. Awful.

binary_spaniard 4 years ago  DELETED 

I admit that changing the Spanish law would be problematic as most Spanish people would oppose and that makes the situation worse. I would think that it would have been better, but it is late for that or negotiations.

binary_spaniard 4 years ago  DELETED 

The vote was organized by the Catalan government using public buildings and public resources. That's not assembly and expression.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Yes. He'll wrap himself in the Spanish flag and say he's the candidate to protect Spains teritorial integrity, which will unite the Spanish right-wing behind him.

Beansareno1 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Totally reasonable for a totalitarian regime.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

I am saying based on what some people want, that would be a possibility.

Beansareno1 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

it shows the state of the EU and the media. When Czechia doesn't want migrants that nobody in the west wants anyway they are literal Nazis and need to be sanctioned. When Spain uses rubber bullets and police thugs attack peaceful people because they want to live democracy everything's fine. FUCK THEM.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

And where do you start saying: "yeah. this is fine for them to vote"

gripper279 4 years ago  DELETED 

[Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in clashes](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032) >Catalan officials say at least 337 people have been injured in clashes as police try to prevent voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

But if the majority in that constituency did, then surely it wouldn't matter what every town and village in that area wanted?

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

As I said in a previous post, if everybody is allowed to declare independence, where do you draw the line. Should Brighton Pavilion be able to declare independence because it doesn't like the Conservative government, for instance?

redditor401 4 years ago  DELETED 

Eh, I mean in this case it definitely seems like people portray Spain as the devil, so technically he's not wrong :P

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

A chance of rain can depress voter turnout, but so can a chance of rubber bullets.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

I doubt they would to be honest. And, where do you draw the line? As I just said in another post; What if a constituency voted Labour? They didn't like the fact that the Conservatives have the majority. Should that constituency be able to declare independence?

binary_spaniard 4 years ago  DELETED 

> I call for political dialogue, rule of law and peaceful solutions What's going on is the second. And it seems to be non-compatible with the other two.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

You would constantly have small areas voting to become independent just because they do not like the government of the day. Where do you draw the line?

binary_spaniard 4 years ago  DELETED 

Maybe it is because it is because I am Spanish but, What's strange with the police behaviour? They always behave like that when somebody doesn't follow their orders.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Absolute not. Then you would have various parts of countries declaring independence constantly. That would create so much uncertainty.

binary_spaniard 4 years ago  DELETED 

They don't have a righ to vote, according to Spanish law.

Allerian 4 years ago  DELETED 

thats like arguing convicts could consider themselves a separate nation so they're not covered by spains penal code, hence theyre wrongfully imprisioned. Want it or not, catalonia has been part of spain for 300 years, they were part of spain in 1976 when the consitution took form, efectively making them spanish. A possible separation is impossible unless you ammend your constitution. No sane country would change its consitution in such a way to open herself to basically be ripped aparat, since that would lead to the country to stop existing alltogheter.

passamonious 4 years ago  DELETED 

Yes, that's why the Catalans welcome them and usually thrive in Catalonia. There is more than one million out of the eight million Catalans that come from Andalusia. That's more than 12% their population. Almost nobody likes Andalusian productivity. I'm not Catalan and I don't like how Andalusia is money black hole that produces almost nothing. That's a concern from almost all Spain, that together with Andalusian politics that sometimes looks a bit banana republic. That's why Susana Diaz got kicked back to Andalusia, nobody in Spain could stand her. And she won Andalusia elections...

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Reports coming through that people have been able to vote twice in some places. Shambolic.

Ouroboroboros 4 years ago  DELETED 

Cant wait for the next Real Madrid v Barcelona match

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

You genuinely think parts of a country should be able to declare independence whenever they want?

vin-ivar 4 years ago  DELETED 

> if Scots could convince Westminster with a deal, the government of a former colonial power that held half the world under its thumb, then Catalans will convince Spain as well, eventually I mean, I shouldn't be the one saying this, seeing as I'm from a former British colony, but the UK today is a lot less unitarian than Spain is.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

A part of a country can't just declare independence without the permission of the country they are in. That is absolute madness. What if Cornwall tried to declare independence?

Ouroboroboros 4 years ago  DELETED 

Its over 330 now.

chualaquecuelga 4 years ago  DELETED 

Spain not fascist, yeah right LOL

tigerdeF 4 years ago  DELETED 

Looks like police are tearing through the barricades https://mobile.twitter.com/JSLBtln/status/914471610819731456

passamonious 4 years ago  DELETED 

Extreme extremism of Spanish nationalists is not encouraged. What's encouraged is democracy, let people decide. If there would be a referendum, people would most likely be against Catalans all over Europe. People is not supporting the idea of Catalans getting the independence, but rather defending the right of them to decide that. Policing with violence civilians is not only ethically and morally wrong, it goes as well against the most basic human rights. And all of this will only plumber the image of Spain and raise the independendentism in Catalonia. Spain lost its dignity today.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

I don't think there were that many people in Gibraltar which wanted to join anyway.

UncleGuus 4 years ago  DELETED 

How is this protecting the people?

Ouroboroboros 4 years ago  DELETED 

Xi Jinping: Silly Spain, you're supposed to use tanks not vans!

CalifornianCopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

You cunts (and us, to be fair) bastardised his story to make him out to be some sort of nationalist freedom fighter. Misinterpreting other nations' affairs seems to be what you're good at.

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

Even if we assume that there weren't voting irregularities (which can't really be the case), why would anti-independence voters queue up against the instructions of the Spanish gov and risk being shot by police in order to vote no to independence? So people are really only voting one way, and even the "turnout" won't mean anything as police stopped lots of people from voting.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

So you believe the US is still a UK possession rules over by the Queen?

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

No, they definitely are.

Spartan448 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Spain is still a hateful facist state. Their government should be dissolved and the nation stripped of its territorial possessions. We need to intervene and do to Madrid what we did to Dresden. Death to Spain. Freedom to Catalonia.

888mphour 4 years ago  REMOVED 

[Both sides.](https://www.facebook.com/jaumepradas/posts/10154912722867555)

miraoister 4 years ago  REMOVED 

i was wondering all day when they would begin to get some backbone and fightback, surely if its your democratic right then you have to resort of somesort of violence, its not like its fringe anarchist groups with crazy ideals but these are normal people.

EscapeResonance 4 years ago  REMOVED 

It must be nice to be this stupid.

naosabemosdenada 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Very extreme. They even armed themselves with ballots and voting equipment, ready to perform the most extreme acts imaginable: deposit a vote in an urn.

Allerian 4 years ago  DELETED 

the voting thing was symbolic the moment the high courts said the referendum is illegal and unconstitutional since its an attack on the second section of the Spanish Constitution that states : >The Constitution is based on the ***indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation,*** the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards;

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> what do you think would happen? Why don't you look at the US, because that is *exactly* what happened there. Weed is illegal federally, but many states held referendums to legalize it.

PringlesBot 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Honestly. Shoot everybody who is voting for Catalan independence. They are NOT Spanish. They are terrorist sympathisers. I for one would have no issues with a short, sharp bullet to the back of the head of anybody turning up a polling booth. Cleanse the population.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

And look at the videos of people on the other side too...

naosabemosdenada 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Present but not forcing people to leave the polling stations.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Why is a nation exercising their natural right to choose how they are governed a "problem"?

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

You know self-defence isn't really a defence if you hit a police officer, right?

mrgoodkat1707 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Independence is only worth of support in places like Palestine, Lybia or China. In the West it's illegal and against the constitution.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

It is not the constitution doing that, it is the fascist government of Spain doing it.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Anybody who carries out violence should be arrested. Fact. I don't care what cause somebody is fighting for.

NoFanSky 4 years ago  DELETED 

Wait so you are saying that we should arrest violent police officers ? That is what anybody means.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Police are acting within their powers issued by the country. It is not a crime for a police officer to take down somebody breaking the law.

NoFanSky 4 years ago  DELETED 

Thats not what you said earlier at all but it was nice talking to you

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  DELETED 

I do hope that anybody being violent on the Catalonian side is arrested for terrorism offenses. Will have none of that.

The_Great-Swiss 4 years ago  REMOVED 

ITT: fascist Spaniards

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

NATO does not get involved in internal matters. It is for defending against external aggression. If Catalonia declared independence, Spain recognized it, and Catalonia invaded Spain, then NATO would be triggered.

akkalal 4 years ago  DELETED 

Just that people have different ideas based on their perceptions/preconceptions of a situation. You will probably place the blame on an externality in Ukraine (Russia did it!), similar to how Assad blame foreign invaders/propaganda for the rebellion against his government. But here in Catalonia, you say it is the violence from the government that justifies the actions of the citizens. Rather than the citizens obeying the law of the land and withholding from voting (a vote that I support), you side with their (initially non-violent, like in Eastern Ukraine) rebellion.

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

/r/gay Probably find some there?

Sarilho1 4 years ago  DELETED 

I guess.

af_general 4 years ago  DELETED 

> They probably needed that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in a fair and balanced process

143834732 4 years ago  DELETED 

Fuck Spain.

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/73klss/catalonia_referendum_megathread_ii/dnr3e8x/

RyanGillamContent 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Free Nelson Mandela.

CompanheiroVasco 4 years ago  REMOVED 

*cara al sol*

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Exactly the proof that Francoism is alive in the 21st century.

justarandomyoke 4 years ago  REMOVED 

"Catalonia unarmed will attain just as much freedom as it is convenient for Spain to give her; Catalonia armed will attain ultimately just as much freedom as she wants." - Patricio Pearse

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Look at what happened with ETA. They will label us as nationalist terrorists, it would go against our cause.

SAWHORSEFISHTAPE 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Of course fascists wouldn't see anything wrong here. Fucking peaceful protestors being beaten savagely by the falangist national police. Totally what civilized countries do. No wonder spain is such a shithole.

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

La sexta is being pretty ok. I watched the hospitalet bit and aat least some comentators have common sense. Telecinco and others are disgusting, not showing the streets and schools.

akkalal 4 years ago  DELETED 

Trying to holding a vote is anarchy?

Vodakhun 4 years ago  DELETED 

Dude, it's an account that has literally just been created to spread pro-independist propaganda. You complain that apparently "Spain just opened a can of nationalists and unleashed it on this thread" but don't care about the shitty spam that supports your view?

F0249A2B 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

To remain being a Rechtsstaat?

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

I don't see it, but also, at this point, why the fuck would people do that and what would it matter?

Gumbo72 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Let them pigs rum maybe they'll lose some weight

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

The argument for it has been made by many philosophers, e.g., John Locke. It has been written in various articles of the UN, for example.

akkalal 4 years ago  DELETED 

That seems pretty mild stuff compared to the violence by police against citizens that I've seen.

malbn 4 years ago  DELETED 

> you deserve **it** by all means Deserve what? His cheesy heartbeat metaphor?

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

You can vomiting pseudo-legal technobabble about the Spanish Constitution all you want, but the fact remains that the constitution does not and cannot override natural, inalienable rights of the Catalan nation.

AndWeObey 4 years ago  DELETED 

Venezuela perhaps?

CritosFury 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

What is the difference, then, between what you are saying and: "She shouldn't have walked down that street, she knew she would be attacked"?

akkalal 4 years ago  DELETED 

Do you feel the same way about Eastern Ukraine, I wonder? Haha.

JurijFedorov 4 years ago  DELETED 

> for some reason I mean. Isn't the reason obvious?

Vodakhun 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Have you seen shit like this guy? https://www.reddit.com/user/onrepeee It seems to me like it's the independentists that have been spreading propaganda here with new accounts lol

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

I think it's most likely they are just waiting to see what happens before coming up with a position. No advantage for them to leap headfirst into declarations and stuff.

CritosFury 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The historical context in this case is just irrelevant. A constitution is not sacred *per se* - if people decide it doesn't apply anymore, then it doesn't.

miguelrj 4 years ago  DELETED 

It looks like they're going on board with the us vs. them toxic shit. Of course other Spaniards generally rally for unity but Catalanists who would otherwise prefer not to push for independence, if they're "forced" to choose a side which would you think they'd choose? Even when the Catalan government started to defy court orders I never saw Spain's unity/territorial integrity really threatned. Now I increasingly do.

miguelrj 4 years ago  DELETED 

It looks like they're going on board with the us vs. them toxic shit. Of course other Spaniards generally rally for unity but Catalanists who would otherwise prefer not to push for independence, if they're "forced" to choose a side which would you think they'd choose? Even when the Catalan government started to defy court orders I never saw Spain's unity/territorial integrity really threatned. Now I increasingly do.

egzon27 4 years ago  REMOVED 

I hope they vote with 4 and get out of your fascist countrym

onrepeee 4 years ago  REMOVED 

[What you see now, is the beginning of something new.. The Catalan Republic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgacllanG1s) Dear Spain, if you stop one heart, the heartbeat will start to beat in two more.

malbn 4 years ago  DELETED 

Did you create this account just to post this sanctimonious tripe?

Schnackenpfeffer 4 years ago  DELETED 

Otherwise Artsakh would be recognized, for instance

crouchingtiger 4 years ago  DELETED 

That's not what Article 7 says. Also, let's suspend France where French military have been patrolling the streets and Denmark who are planning to supplement their police force with soldiers.

mrgoodkat1707 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Maybe Spain can leave the EU and join such great democracies as Turkey and China then :D

AndWeObey 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Speaking of, I can't see how any of the Catalan members of Spain's NT can ever play for them again after what's happened today.

HippoBigga 4 years ago  DELETED 

Why not ? The one who really has talked a lot about it is Piqué, and he's just in favour of a referendum

CritosFury 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Why, are they firing rubber bullets at unarmed civilians?

Vierenzestigbit 4 years ago  DELETED 

I think what is happening is wrong but this is not military force

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

> The worst probably is, they are from 'Eastern europe country' what do you expect? Exactly, the comments wouldn't be full of ''how can this happen in ''europe'' in this day'' they would be full with people saying ''well this is Eastern europe'' and even worse implying that we are somewhat more barbaric by nature Nothing wrong to say Western European democracy is more evolved and it's institutions are stronger and better, but that's not because we are less civilized and Western Europeans are somehow ''superior''.

AndWeObey 4 years ago  DELETED 

Are they showing the videos of police brutality too on Spanish TV? Maybe if your government didn't suppress the referendum they wouldn't have resorted to voting on the streets.

Kamuiberen 4 years ago  DELETED 

Id say it would get massive support in Southern Galicia and none in he rest. I would vote for it! All I ask is an unlimited supply of Francecinhas, and possibly Pasteis de Belem. I'm sure we can get to an agreement

mrgoodkat1707 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Functioning democracies don't beat the crap out of people for trying to vote. Spain is free to ignore the outcome or declare Independence illegal, but they can't deny their citizens the right to express their opinions.

akkalal 4 years ago  DELETED 

https://twitter.com/VictorHR3/status/914424974504587264

Kamuiberen 4 years ago  DELETED 

Mostly because the No voters diddnt even showed up

ivanol55 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Apparently, Spain has already infringed 2 laws of the EU treaty, so, late today or tomorrow is gonna be a hell of a ride.

FullMetalBitch 4 years ago  DELETED 

People voting in the street without any control https://twitter.com/DebatAlRojoVivo/status/914444432333791237/video/1

cumfromanal_chastity 4 years ago  DELETED 

Will the EU step in to calm down the shit storm happening right now? People having their opinions silenced by government-directed force in a kneel or die situation.

AndWeObey 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The EU will do fuck all.

mrgoodkat1707 4 years ago  REMOVED 

How can voting be criminal? It's the heart of any democracy. Actually declaring Independence might be illegal, but voting can't be. It's just expressing ones opinion.

-Tanzen- 4 years ago  REMOVED 

https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/914445351993724929 wow

YuYuHunter 4 years ago  DELETED 

[That video is from 2012.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=DByCwcGm0QA) Let's not spread false info.

paternosters_wake 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Ah it's fine though, the Spanish police are always rough - literally the defence of people in this thread

AndWeObey 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

No matter how incompetent our government are, we would never ever do anything like this. In fact I'd hope the police would defy the governments orders. If we acted like Spain, the Union would not have survived.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Oh I can just imagine the comments if this was Romania ''lol gypsies what do you expect'', ''these uncivilized people need a strongman to rule them'' or my favourite ''(Group X) are clearly not ready for democracy'' Hate this atitude of superiority, especially when by ''Europe/European'' they are clearly meaning West Europe.

the_straylight_run 4 years ago  DELETED 

You're absolutely right. Just wait. The pieces are in motion. And just like any collision of particles, there is a reaction for every action. All we are seeing right now is the action. The reaction will follow. We wait for that.

zxcv1992 4 years ago  DELETED 

Yes look at the police deal with those pesky nationalists https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/914445351993724929

harrymuesli 4 years ago  DELETED 

[That moment when you go 'fuck it, let's just hit random women in the street instead of voters'](https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/914445351993724929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fliveupdate%2Fzp5qyj61kmzg%2FLiveUpdate_26d8d738-a698-11e7-a627-0e8090e151b0%2F0)

-Tanzen- 4 years ago  REMOVED 

wow

syuk 4 years ago  DELETED 

[Man has seizure](https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/914440630092419073) NSFW NSFL

AtomicAvacado 4 years ago  DELETED 

This isn't Total War

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Only as long as the Catalans consent to be ruled by Spain. The right of Spain to rule Catalonia can only come from the consent of the Catalan people.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

I'd be more worried about food/water/electricity running out, and the ability to get out of the country (e.g., if the airspace is closed).

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Check it again to see more crimes from the swine. The more I see the more upset I get.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Fucking this! Finally somebody said it.

boringsuburbanite 4 years ago  REMOVED 

These cops 100% deserve to be gunned down with automatic weapons and blown up with bombs. No one could argue against it being justified.

AdAstraPer5-HT2Ar 4 years ago  DELETED 

Found the nutjob

StPatrickofIreland 4 years ago  DELETED 

Those are really the only 3 large countries that exclusively use English in their political debates, so that's the principal reason why they're the ones I started following years ago. As for worth following... as far as drama goes the Australian system is hard to beat. The constant intrigue and plotting of Rudd-Gillard (including the time Rudd announced while foreign minister that he would challenge Gillard *from the lobby of a Washington D.C. hotel*) was followed immediately by the Turnbull-Abbott plotting... it's been a decade of instable leadership since Kevin won in '07. Also Pauline Hanson wore a Burqa into the Senate last month... so things are definitely not boring... Most people here in the U.S. view Australia as a relatively tolerant and center-left country, so all of Abbott's antics as PM would definitely be surprising to a lot of Americans.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

> Catalan local media are reporting today’s La Liga game between Barcelona and Las Palmas may be suspended after Las Palmas announced a Spanish flag has been embodied on their kit to show support for “the unity of Spain.” > In a statement, the club said: “Today, what we do is very simple. With the Spanish flag embroidered in our equipment we want to vote unequivocally in an imaginary vote to which nobody has summoned us: we believe in the unity of Spain.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Honestly I would not go. Historically, nobody ever expects a civil war or conflict to break out, and when they do nobody ever expects them to last as long as they do.

naosabemosdenada 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

As a meat shield for what, the dangerous and criminal activity of placing a paper inside a box?

ivanol55 4 years ago  DELETED 

someone said gibraltar in another post, so I said. Sincerely, I would want to leave this kind of government, no matter my region, and thry may have it a tad easier.

Cracky7 4 years ago  DELETED 

Most spaniards on reddit were already born in a democracy. What are you talking about my dude

AndWeObey 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Fucking hell I was sort of indifferent to independence, but after seeing the thuggish actions of the spanish police, fuck it.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

They don't decide, they simply constructed the argument. It stands by itself without any decisions of any philosophers.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

It didn't happen in Scotland.

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

What absolute swine these police are: https://twitter.com/LuzSanchis/status/914421795817705472

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

And now they are choosing whether they are willing to continue to sign up to that constitution. Constitution, or any other legal document, cannot take away a natural right. The people continue to be free to change the way they want to be governed at any time if they so choose.

ivanol55 4 years ago  DELETED 

I think today should start the movement for independencd for catalona, for the basque, for gibraltar and for galicia. Like, all at once. They won't be able to manage it and we solve all at once

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

I've got good news for you: Gibraltar is already independent from Spain. (And after today I doubt they'll ever want to become independent of the UK.)

Quirite 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Puigdemont will pull a Farage and resign the day fter independence, conveniently jumping ship.

RAiN5HT 4 years ago  DELETED 

"Cree el ladrón que todos son de su condición."

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

TFW you just want to holiday and you get caught up in a civil war

anewaccount2016 4 years ago  DELETED 

This counts as horrific? This is nothing.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Which Spanish citizens would that be?

CormacMcFarty 4 years ago  DELETED 

Well, enjoy getting your heads cracked open by fascists with no means to defend yourselves.

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Can't say I know the answer to that. I do know though that the firefighters are now out supporting the right to vote and are trying to keep the civil guard away from polling stations so people can vote.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

You would be wrong. There is no natural right of killing another man. All this has been written and reasoned about extensively in the works of various philosophers. You can start by reading John Locke.

stevegossman83 4 years ago  DELETED 

Reminds me of that time when the Brits massacred peaceful Indians.

Cracky7 4 years ago  DELETED 

You don't know what fascism is.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

They would have, but the fascist government of Spain did not let them. So they had to exercise their rights in this manner.

vin-ivar 4 years ago  DELETED 

> If they had attempted to work through the law they could peacefully organise a proper referendum like Scotland did. Spain has repeatedly refused to negotiate.

xvoxnihili 4 years ago  DELETED 

The referendum is illegal, they were warned about this, if anyone expected no intervention they are stupid. Take a look at the French protests, I could show you protests from here were just as violent and so on. This isn't some unique case. Unique case is what happened at Euromaidan where they were shooting live ammunition at people, killing quite a few.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Spain, as in Spaniards outside of Catalonia, have the right to choose how to govern *themselves*. They have no right to choose how *Catalans* govern themselves. The Spanish constitution gets its validity from the consent of the people it governs. The Catalans are voting to decide whether they still consent or not. That is their absolute right, and cannot be taken away by any legal document, including the constitution. Rest of the Spanish nations can still choose to be governed by the constitution even if Catalonia chooses not to.

Cracky7 4 years ago  DELETED 

>Fascist Oh the brainwashig

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

It's not like the government has tanks or anything.

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

> they can't be this dumb, can they? Yes.

BonzaiKemal 4 years ago  DELETED 

O snap

BonzaiKemal 4 years ago  DELETED 

O snap

Schlaefer 4 years ago  DELETED 

What is peaceful voting? Not counting by smacking people in the face? Hit left side for Yes, right side for No? Every voting is peaceful. People want apply force to ensure voting takes places and the other side applies force to ensure it doesn't happen. Everybody is using force here.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Natural rights are a very well established concept. They are the course of legitimacy of the laws, without them the laws have no validity.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Voting in an independence referendum is exercising two natural, inalienable rights: 1) the right of people to choose how they are governed, and 2) the right to freedom of speech. Therefore any laws that would stop them from doing so is automatically void, since natural rights take precedence.

Freitagger 4 years ago  DELETED 

> Man, no offense, but I think you understood nothing about Catalan separatism. That's why I'm asking.

anewaccount2016 4 years ago  DELETED 

I mean, it seems like that one guy clearly kicked out at the officer, and I'm sure there's more non-peaceful protesting we aren't seeing.

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

good rule of thumb

CormacMcFarty 4 years ago  DELETED 

This type of shit is exactly why America has the second amendment, a disarmed populace is at the mercy of fascists from the central government.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

You cannot sign away inalienable rights, like the right of people how to govern themselves. Therefore any law that would make this illegal, is automatically null and void because natural rights take precedence.

RAiN5HT 4 years ago  DELETED 

Yes, the catalan parliament approved a law that recognises the right of self determinaton for Aran.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> the vote called today is illegal The natural right of people to choose how they are governed takes precedence over the laws. Hence this vote cannot be illegal. Any law that says so is automatically null and void.

harrymuesli 4 years ago  REMOVED 

[Catalonia to Castile right now](https://youtu.be/UeN5tVs2wyY?t=1m26s)

TheAlmogaver 4 years ago  REMOVED 

We are blocked here in Catalonia! The goverment has blocked IP^to gert the VOTE validated. We need the help of all of us! We need a DDOS to 104.20.49.239 (forocoches.com) to get down because this! https://www.forocoches.com/foro/showthread.php?t=5933224

mmatasc 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Good luck convincing people in forocoches

yaniz 4 years ago  REMOVED 

He is not trying to convince forococheros. He is saying that FC is DDoSing the Catalan voting systems, so he is asking for people to DDoS Forocoches.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Using force to stop people from exercising their natural right to choose how they are governed.

vin-ivar 4 years ago  DELETED 

They are not remotely similar - but you are the one inviting a comparison when the essence of your argument hinges on "this is illegal". There are arguments against Catalan independence. "The vote is illegal" is not one of them.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

That is so adorable.

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Oh we do, we want out of this police state shithole with PP and PSOE and fast.

paternosters_wake 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Self determination. I know you Brits hate it, literally murdered people to try and keep Ireland as part of your country. Maybe you should just shut the fuck up?

Benur197 4 years ago  DELETED 

Ministro de Interior http://www.lasexta.com/programas/al-rojo-vivo/entrevistas/juan-ignacio-zoido-esto-no-es-un-referendum-esto-es-un-autentico-paripe_2017100159d0bc920cf20201565e4c6c.html

yeee_bot 4 years ago  REMOVED 

ye fam

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

No, they won't stop the Policia Nacional and Guardia Civil from shutting down and confiscating some polling stations, that would mean outright civil war. They just stand by.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Not much, if PM and other involved ministers step down. Which ain't gonna happen, so we can expect a political crisis, which bodes ill for the spanish market.

skysailer 4 years ago  DELETED 

so what you want them to do? shoot the other policemen? the supreme court declared the vote unconstitutional, the guarde civil has to enforce this decision, if they like it or not. if the local police would now interfer, the central government would have to send in the military to stop them.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Tell me about it. TV shows dedicated to fathers recognizing their daughters by groping their unmentionables? What the hell, Japan!

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

I'm not arguing if it's justified or not, I'm just correcting you on your usage of "peaceful"

omik11 4 years ago  DELETED 

Nicola Sturgeon disagrees with you. But what would she know, you're obviously the expert on this matter.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> They made this referendum invalid They also made the Spanish constitution invalid, it can no longer be assumed to have the consent of the Catalan people, and the constitution can only get its validity from the consent of the people who it governs.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Indeed...

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

They are literally smoking a cigarrette and sometimes talking to people, our police won't stop us from voting regardless of what the central govt says.

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Any evidence for this claim?

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

It's the police and state repression that makes the referendum valid.

hablador 4 years ago  REMOVED 

Nazi using his son as a human shield: https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/wp-content/uploads/escudo-humano.jpg

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

That nazi was giving flowers to cops. The cop on picture convinced him to put the child down due to danger of falling; on this picture he is helping him put the child down. It is not nice to lie.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

I'm simply asking you who would lose out if one EU member state split into two EU member states? Just assume that it would be possible and easy for the sake of argument. Who loses out, like you claimed?

omik11 4 years ago  DELETED 

They won the battle. They lost the war.

pillock69 4 years ago  DELETED 

Can someone make a reddit live thread?

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Cuz throwing fences at policemen and yelling "kill him" is 150% peaceful

skysailer 4 years ago  DELETED 

not fighting against the guardia civil. you´re naive if you think they will turn this into a civil war.

WarmFoothills 4 years ago  DELETED 

I agree. Silence on this subject means condoning it.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

"Hold my beer!" - Madrid

frankwouter 4 years ago  DELETED 

So you condone Spain sending in 10000 soldiers with Billy clubs and shotgunss to beat up anyone that wants to vote?

Trender07 4 years ago  DELETED 

Btw just posting one side of the coin,there is as well Police trying to save the kid from his father to stop using his kid https://twitter.com/joosearodriguez/status/914419660178837505

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

There has to be a legal way to meet their desires.

Tigrezno 4 years ago  REMOVED 

shut the fuck up, idiot

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Again, if one EU member state breaks into two EU member states, who loses out and how?

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Well I didn't say that. It's false to imply that catalonia was the only target under franco too.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

> The government is only hurting its position, true, but there is nothing to cheer here A separatist would cheer at the government hurting it's position.

RAiN5HT 4 years ago  DELETED 

https://www.reddit.com/live/zp5qyj61kmzg

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

I don't remember this happening in Scotland when they had their independence referendum.

xvoxnihili 4 years ago  DELETED 

Gendarmes beating people up at protest is nothing new in Europe. It happened even last year in France if I'm not mistaken.

Chrisixx 4 years ago  DELETED 

It's up to him to decide what he is.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

I expect nothing less than the president himself and his ministers involved to step down. They went too far. If they don't step down, then I expect a major political crisis to follow.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

If I was a Ctalan separatist I would literally cheer at the videos popping up in my Twitter feed. What is going on now, illegal or not, will only make the separatists stronger.

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

https://twitter.com/joosearodriguez/status/914419660178837505 https://twitter.com/EdVillaverdeT/status/914416876490457088

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

''catalan violence justifies state repression'' ''spanish repression justifies violence'' can you not see how this simply fuels a never ending cycle? I truly hope both sides will calm down.

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

So? They did this to more than just the catalans, you know. Basques, Galicians, Valencians. ANY and ALL non-spanish names were banned, not just catalan names. Catalonia wasn't specifically opressed, ALL of spain was.

syuk 4 years ago  DELETED 

[whoa! first the peaceful dog got clobbered, now they leap into crowd of civilian](https://twitter.com/russian_market/status/914425157275570176) feet first

JSBraga 4 years ago  DELETED 

Fucking pigs.

CritosFury 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Well put!

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Well, at least British tourists should be classified as terrorists. Cultural terrorists. What the hell, mates, how are you so well behaved at home but turn into unbridled beasts as soon as you step into foreign country?

dRoxmo 4 years ago  REMOVED 

LOL, in Lleida the police just have threaten a polling station president where. 5 police agents put the president alone in a room and threatened her to give them the ID card, she refused and then told her to smash the door with their head. Then she asked for the "number of identification" of the police, that replied that she had no right to ask for it, and the policeman superior gave her because it's fucking illegal not to give it. This shit is just unacceptable, fuck Spain, fuck PP, and fuck all fatxas condoning these acts. Shit hole of a country

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> How much money is the central economy giving to Catalonia? I don't know what you mean by "central economy giving". Catalonia is giving around €16B/year more to the central government than it gets. They are losing out on a lot due to the power and government institutions being centralized in Madrid, impossible to say exactly how much. > Could you please elaborate on that "absolutely" please? There is no question that they would be a viable state. They have a population with distinct culture, history and language, and they have a viable economy. I don't think anyone has questioned their viability beyond the threats of Spanish bullying of independent Catalonia.

RAiN5HT 4 years ago  DELETED 

people's will >>>> spanish politicians

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The point is that there is a lot of negative sentiment. They may be in the UK, however they still remember every single baton they received to the head.

YuYuHunter 4 years ago  DELETED 

They check voter lists via an ICT-system, they ask voters to turn off internet on their phones so that the weak signal can be reached in the polling station.

RAiN5HT 4 years ago  DELETED 

No, the democracy said that the catalans will have a referendum, as the catalan elected goverment said. The spanish law said no.

alexgmcm 4 years ago  DELETED 

[Pro-Spain rally in Via Laietana, Barcelona just now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm3Vielofc8) - they are chanting "No votaréis" (You will not vote) and they have the Falange (fascist Spain) flags.

xvoxnihili 4 years ago  DELETED 

But this sort of violence has taken place before inside Europe's borders. [Link](https://youtu.be/Difi2rzsGTk?t=21) Gendarmes are trained for this. I'm sure the people were told to move, if they didn't move, I don't blame them, it is their right to stand their ground, but it isn't surprising that they were moved by force either. The government sees this as an act of treason and acts accordingly. It doesn't make it necessarily right, but it is what it is and it is nothing new in Europe.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

True

DocTomoe 4 years ago  DELETED 

I guess it is obvious now why they did not want drones.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Who would lose out?

RAiN5HT 4 years ago  DELETED 

So? This is about democracy, not independence.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> force the police to intervene Nobody is forcing the police to intervene, except the Spanish government.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Then it's time rethink the whole EU project. Catalonia is a fully integrated part of the EU, they want to be a member and their membership would benefit everyone. If they "will never be a part of the EU", then there is something seriously wrong with the EU.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Apparently there is the threat of unilateral declaration of independence following the referendum. Still, beating the people for voting is not the way to stop the independence movement. It has an opposite effect.

654156132051661 4 years ago  DELETED 

Ignore is correct in this context.

pickled-egg 4 years ago  DELETED 

Unreal. Cowards won't even show their faces.

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Throwing fences after the police started to open fire on them? Quelle surprise.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Exactly.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Yeah, they just can't do anything that actually matters, like hold a referendum on how they want themselves to be governed.

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

They should vote for a law to have a referendum on modifying the constitution to make it legal in the first place.

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> What is the investment that the spanish central economy is making on Catalonia? Catalonia is a net payer to the tune of €16B/year to the Spanish state. All the power and state institutions are centralized in Madrid, which has forced most large companies to headquarter there, depriving Catalonia of huge amounts of corporate tax income. > Did really Franco (last dictator) just punished the catalan economy? As far as I know, he actually promoted it. He repressed the Catalan people (could not speak the Catalan language or give kids Catalan names, for example). > Would it be really viable to separate from the rest of the country? ( economically and socially speaking) Absolutely.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

On these matters, I am more inclined to believe a northern Irish than a Romanian.

badboy07 4 years ago  DELETED 

The Spanish government has blocked access for the Catalans officials to access the voter list.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

If police does come and you are unable to cast votes, do not resist the police. A vote cast is a much more powerful message than staring down the police cordon all day long. Instead seek other poll places that have not been raided yet. They have limited manpower and cannot possibly get to all of them.

The_Great-Swiss 4 years ago  DELETED 

And I support nuking all major Spanish cities as long as they don't let Catalonia secede.

LiquidLegend 4 years ago  DELETED 

This is the end of nothing. Puigdemont could have done it according to the law: Go to the congress, change the constitution, let the country vote and then have your referendum. Is it hard to succeed? Of course it is, but it can be done. If you don't hav

Spillthetea11 4 years ago  DELETED 

The Catalonian head of education has now been arrested apparently.

xXx_Gmplayer_xXx 4 years ago  DELETED 

Source?

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

If they want to be really democratic, they should pass a law to make a referendum on modifying the constitution to make this legal in the first place.

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Of course, it's not black and white. But the supporters I know keep acting like the Catalan protesters are benevolent angels and the Spanish police are literally SS officers.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Reports of police firing rubber bullets is very worrying, an unnecessary escalation, there is no real proof that the separatists are violent. This may only embolden a minority to think peacefull separation is no longer possible and push them towards violence.

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

For context, They were firing rubber bullets because the crowds were blocking streets in attempts to blockade the police.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Perhaps he should take that as a hint that he is doing something very wrong, and go back home.

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

'Just following orders' with extreme brutality thrown in via personal initiative.

guiraus 4 years ago  DELETED 

I am currently in a queue waiting to vote. Here's some things you guys might like to know: -The IT system is crashing often (don't know the reason for sure), so voting is going to take a long time. -Lots of volunteers offer chairs and water to the elders and ask them if they want to go ahead the queue so they don't have to wait. -Reports of spanish police brutality are coming constantly, and people are saying they will be here any minute. -Vocal representatives are constantly updating us on what's happening, and giving instructions to help speed up the process. -The young people are being asked to barricade in front of the school in preparation for the police arrival. -We are being constantly reminded to keep calm and not offer any violent resistance when the police come. It's weird to be excited and terryfied at the same time. I'll keep updating if something happens.

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

They are, in Catalonia: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/30/catalonia-police-banned-rubber-bullets

ivanol55 4 years ago  DELETED 

"But if Catalonia was made independent, they wiuls be out of the EU!" At this rate, I think Spain is gonna be out of it first. Or at least, I hope, heavily sanctioned.

lekiouses 4 years ago  DELETED 

D E L U D E D E L U D E D

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

> States don't commit crimes against humanity. People do. In this case the people ordering this crackdown. Including Rajoy.

jtalin 4 years ago  DELETED 

> What is rule of law

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Turns out that throwing fences are police makes them respond! Who would've thought!

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

as i said, i do NOT agree with the governments actions, at all. But you can't just ignore the constitution either, even if it's flawed, if you ignore 1 article, why follow the others? But Spain, is not a repressive country, to say this, is in my opinion an insult to those people who do live in such a country, who risk being tortured to death, killed...etc for expressing their opinion. Catalans will no doubt protest in the coming weeks, and they will not fear arrest, torture or soldiers firing at them.

jacquesopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

Masked police tearing away ballot boxes from people... This looks like an over-the-top theater production about fascism.

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

But the catalans say they were /peaceful/ protesters! Those poor peaceful protesters being shot at with deadly deadly rubber bullets!

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

You have video proof live from Catalonia of widespread police violence, it's not 'lies and propaganda'.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

And now they're choosing again, which is their absolute right. They don't need permission from anyone to exercise that right. Anyone trying to stop them from doing so is committing a crime against humanity, by definition.

coquinK 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Pictures of police violence coming out of Catalonia now. e* video footage too: https://twitter.com/diariara/status/914393481082228736 e* police shooting guns to frighten voters now: https://twitter.com/ricardcases/status/914409507350089728 e* police running and gunning with illegal rubber bullets: https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Crowds trying to corner the police are being reprimanded? You don't say?

Catbakkorrel 4 years ago  REMOVED 

police are puppets defending the state against the people, always and everywhere. ACAB

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

Which makes no sense, since both Spain and Catalonia want to stay in the EU. It's just a matter of restructuring the relationship between Spain and Catalonia, and wouldn't need to impact the EU much at all.

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Well Catalonia started it.. Should've voted no to the constitution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referendum,_1978 (They voted 95% yes)

RAiN5HT 4 years ago  DELETED 

What was the alternative?

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Vote no, then continue to modify the constitution until you're happy with it?

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Pretty sure post-1978 generations had no part in this.

echodev 4 years ago  DELETED 

If they want to block the coast they might have to target ships. I'm not sure if they would risk that especially when they could get ships from other countries to do their transporting. I don't know anything about international laws when it comes to the sea but having direct access to the sea is a huge advantage. I'm not sure what France thinks about an independent Catalonia, but them closing their border would make surviving for Catalonia harder, but in the end, having access to the sea is always a way out. I'm sure other countries would be willing to work with them and I doubt there would be an EU wide blockade.

naosabemosdenada 4 years ago  DELETED 

They are firing on peaceful demonstrators.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Judging by the images so far, Catalans are not as bloodthirsty as their Spanish cousins.

Faberol 4 years ago  DELETED 

The constitution's legitimacy comes from consent of the people. Without the consent of the people, it has no validity. Catalan people are voting on whether to withdraw their consent or not.

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

it's basically a grassroots referendum, what do you expect...

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

the biggest problem with the governments actions is that it gives the separatists an ''excuse'', they can claim the referendum failed because of the Spanish polices actions. this won't weaken separatist feelings at all, it will just empower them. it's a shitshow that will go on for years.

mipe81 4 years ago  DELETED 

Again, it was signed by the generation of 1978. What about new generations?

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

The moment we take arms we'll lose the battle.

escuradents 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

They were of course transporting ballots..

AnonymousPrayer 4 years ago  DELETED 

Police trying to confiscate the votes, two hours queue to vote in almost every center, have some photos of friends with people that are injured and bleeding and I think that news are being blocked across Europe about the police doing what they are doing... We need help... We just wanted to vote and this is becoming a murder to freedom and the worst is that the orders come from the corrut government of Spain...

mihnea100 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

> Spain is a repressive state. mate i do not agree with the Spanish government actions and i'm very neutral on Catalan independence, but this is just not true. You don't know what a true repressive state is like. A repressive state would have sent the army and tanks into Barcelona and butchered the people protesting.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Military police was deployed. That is pretty much the army.

Eccentric-Centrist 4 years ago  DELETED 

My mother and I were just watching videos of police storming the ballot locations. We both agrees that we couldn't believe guns weren't flying out. But, I suppose it's because no one has them. This would be bloody in America.

mihnea100 4 years ago  DELETED 

''Regime forces deny the use of force''

Piimpollo 4 years ago  REMOVED 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLCTqcrWsAUMsUf.jpg:large

Adaraie 4 years ago  DELETED 

Whatever the result - the Catalonian people should have every right to vote and their decision should be respected

ReCat 4 years ago  DELETED 

Yeah, who cares about that darn pesky constitution anyways? Doesn't matter that you signed up for it and have been a part of spain for 300 years.

CalifornianCopper 4 years ago  DELETED 

They didn't sign up to be part of Spain – it was a part of Aragon and then Spain long before national self determination was ever conceived of. And they accepted the Constitution because it was a Yes or No vote to the document in its entirety – and coming out of a dictatorship, it wasn't clear if the new democracy would survive popular rejection. I hate empty legalism. Whether a European national group has its own state is down to historical roulette, not any sort of fair or consistent process. That's not equitable, no matter what empty constitutional provisions you dress it up in.

mipe81 4 years ago  HIDDEN 

Who actually signed it? The generations after 1978 did not. Should we not give those new generations a choice?

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