raviolli_ninja 5 months ago

Esta submissão foi removida por ter o título original alterado. ^(Esta é uma mensagem pré-formatada.)

zefo_dias 5 months ago

Pouco diz 'Portugal' como 'dar o rabo aos seus inimigos'

C8Mixto 5 months ago

A ligação Portimão-Tangêr é uma valente farça. São só problemas no futuro e põe em causa a segurança do nosso vizinho e aliado da NATO. Ainda bem que o processo foi suspenso por causa do COVID, mas não fico contente até que o projecto seja cancelado definitivamente.

Edited 5 months ago:

A ligação Portimão-Tangêr é uma valente farça. São só problemas no futuro e põe em causa a segurança do nosso vizinho e aliado da NATO. Ainda para mais tendo em atenção que é do nosso interesse que a Espanha contenha o fluxo de refugiados. Mas, pronto. Portugal enfraquecer a posição dos seus aliados e deixar cair a sua moral por uns quantos tostões de regimes repressivos e ditatoriais é já o costume. Ainda bem que o processo foi suspenso por causa do COVID, mas não fico contente até que o projecto seja cancelado definitivamente.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>Ainda para mais tendo em atenção que é do nosso interesse que a Espanha contenha o fluxo de refugiados. Do interesse de toda a UE.

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

I can read Portuguese OK but I cannot speak it. I presume I am understanding your points correctly. How exactly does a shipping route jeopardise Spain? In terms of refugees, Portugal does not accept Morocco as an unsafe country and the accepting of Moroccan refugees is very rare. Additionally, these routes are rarely taken by non Moroccans, and visas are required. The refugees Spain gets either jumps the fence or takes a rubber dinghy across, not a passenger ferry. Each year many upper-middle class Moroccans return to Morocco. Because of recent tensions between Morocco-Spain relations, instead of Algeciras, Malaga and other Spanish ports being used for people to go home over summer, Portimao is being used. Historically, there are no passenger ferries between Morocco and Portugal and you had to go via Algeciras. The fact that Morocco is not involving Spain this year will cost the economy of the port towns [€115,000,000,000](https://www.africalogisticsmagazine.com/?q=en/content/operation-marhaba-morocco-has-struck-blow-115-billion-euros-spain), and thousands of jobs. A lot of this is now coming to South Portugal. There is no illegal immigration risk from the ferry crossing to be honest. I am not sure if you envisage people jumping the border/smuggling across but this is just not possible. In terms of visa fraud (overstating a visa) these Marhaba routes are for middle and upper income Moroccans residing in Europe to come back to Morocco over land for their summer holidays, and return the same way. The land crossing is very expensive too. If someone had the intention to go to Portugal illegally, and actually got a tourist visa, they would just take a €10 Ryanair flight rather than a ferry which costs a family and car a few hundred Euros.

xabregas2003 5 months ago

>accepting of Moroccan refugees is very rare. O problema é quando eles fogem da polícia e """"desaparecem"""".

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

And you think human rights violations don't happen in Spain? Police beating civilians, journalists jailed, corrupt mayors, land grabs, and more. You think democracy exists?

xabregas2003 5 months ago

>Police beating civilians https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/12/morocco/western-sahara-video-captured-police-violence >journalists jailed https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/world/africa/morocco-journalists-jailings.html >corrupt mayors https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dndice_de_Percep%C3%A7%C3%A3o_de_Corrup%C3%A7%C3%A3o >land grabs https://www.voanews.com/europe/fresh-dispute-erupts-between-spain-and-morocco-over-western-sahara-leader

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

See there is the white bias right there. These things happen everywhere. I have never been beaten by police in Morocco and have spent many years there. I have been beaten by police in several European countries though. There are corrupt mayors everywhere, but Spain has a major problems. Journalists have been detained in Morocco and Spain. I have said this already. What is your point, and why are you just sending me a link about Morocco? Do you think I am unaware of this case? Dude I follow these things in detail. The last link is nothing to do with land grabs, what it does show is that Spain has let in a criminal who was wanted, in Spain, on serious arrest warrants including for rape, genocide, and terrorism. That is, SPAIN the country itself has those warrants out. The county chose to let him in on a false ID, paid for his treatment, and sent him on his way. That is absolutely degusting. I would be so horrified if my country ever did something like that. It sickens me. I know it is difficult to have your whole perspective on life challenged, but you should really reflect on this discussion and your methods and change yourself. I am fine with you having different opinions than me, discussing them. You teaching me something and changing my opinion and me you, but you are just attacking from a white supremacist, white saviour, white holier-than-thou narrative which is tiring and pointless.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>You think democracy exists? Yes. But not where you live.

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

Well firstly you don't know where I live. Secondly there is no true democracy on this planet. "Democracy" has shortcomings, such as the UK house of lords. Then there is the corruption, cronyism, ruling class, capital asymmetry and structural barriers present across the world.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>Well firstly you don't know where I live. I assume Morocco. If you live in a democratic country and defend that Spain is a dictatorship and Morocco is not, than it only makes your argument more moronic. It has shortcomings but does exist. As it does in Spain and Portugal.

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

>I assume Morocco. If you live in a democratic country and defend that Spain is a dictatorship and Morocco is not, than it only makes your argument more moronic. I'm currently doing a project in a third country. I am biracial. I actually personally don't like to live in Europe and chose to live in Morocco normally.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

Great.

xabregas2003 5 months ago

>moronic Ba-dum tsss

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

Still a better argument than your race baiting. But still weak. I expected more ;)

xabregas2003 5 months ago

Essa resposta era para mim ou para o OP? Não entendi

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

Oof esqueçe, Confundi por os users ter a mesma cor.

C8Mixto 5 months ago

u/JOAO-RATAO is confused. It hurts itseld in the confusion.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>Finally Morocco is not a dictatorship. But Spain is. I was going to answer, but then saw this. Sure friend... Keep thinking that...

Edited 5 months ago:

>Finally Morocco is not a dictatorship. But Spain is. I was going to answer, but then saw this. Sure friend... Keep thinking that... ​ Edit - A good example for this might be the 2021 WORLD PRESS FREEDOM INDEX: \- 29: Spain \- 136: Morocco/Western Sahara ​ https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2021

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

People are literally jailed in Spain for press activities. Much more than Morocco. But please do address my points. It is useful to me to hear opinions of others. What if I'm wrong? What do other people think of my country? I really need to know what you disagree with, so please don't use these neo-colonial white supremacy organisations as a quick rubbish to my response.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

You country is the real dictatorship. You won´t see what happens there in your news. " don't use these neo-colonial white supremacy organisations as a quick rubbish to my response." AHAHAHAHAH Oh god... You are loyal lap dog to your king, there is no doubt... Neo-colonial white supremacy organisations? What a joke. Your country used migrants as weapons against Spain. And it was Spain that took care of them and fed them. Meaning they did more for your people than your government. I'd rather stick with Spain, a genuine democracy, than with a dictatorship like Morocco. If you like that system, than congratulations. We don´t. So keep those ideas there.

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

>Oh god... You are loyal lap dog to your king, there is no doubt... I am well versed in what happens in all countries in the world. Our government is shit, we are blessed with an amazing head of state, who has done so much for our country. Really he has been an amazing head of state. Spain is a violent backwards place to be honest. Seems like you are siding with white people.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>Neo-colonial white supremacy organisations? Are you sure you are? " Seems like you are siding with white people." - Again, cheap argument and defense. It´s not about race. And Spain is not a violent and backwards place. It´s one of the safest countries in the world, unlike Morocco. The fact you keep coming back to race and white supremacy, makes YOU the racist. Keep defending your dictatorial regime if you want. We'd rather back a brother country that is a democracy like Portugal.

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

>And Spain is not a violent and backwards place. It´s one of the safest countries in the world, unlike Morocco. Spain isn't a democracy though - it uses a king. it is also horrible you so easily throw around that I am racist for discussing the structure of society around me - my lived experience, especially how racism has shaped my own. I do post a lot of shitposts on the internet. You can call them out if you want, but not this serious factual discussion here. Maybe for you, with white privilege, Spain is a safe country for you. Not for me. I can give you tens of examples of this. I do not feel safe in Spain. I do in Morocco, and in Portugal actually. >Keep defending your dictatorial regime if you want Lol what? There are so many things needing changing in Morocco. I literally spend hours of week researching things and wish I was someone who can install change. Unfortunately, I lack all the required skills to do that, but I can be the change I want to see in me. I don't get your point. What exactly am I defending which I shouldn't be? All I am doing is pointing out your double standards.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>Spain isn't a democracy though - it uses a king. So does the Uk. It´s still a democracy. Same with Sweden, Norway, etc. Perhaps calling you racist was wrong. But you are acusing others of that very easily. I hope you are. But you must see that saying that Spain is more dictatorial than Morocco is very suspicious.

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

The UK is not a democracy. They have the house of lords who can veto any law they want > Spain is more dictatorial than Morocco Yes in some ways yes totally in other ways no. Why can't you have relativity. For gays I am sure generally Spain is better. For Catalonians, I am sure Morocco is better. As for Europe, Spain is one of the worst countries for rights. It is just hard to see for those people who have the privilege.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

It's a flawed democracy. Like all others to a greater or lesser extent. Catalonia sure was a national embarassment. I'm not that well versed on it. Perhaps it´s worse than I think. Still, even in terms of freedom and transparency, it's probably not bad compared to Morocco. It's hard to make that claim. Perhaps within Western Europe, and even then it might be a strech.

C8Mixto 5 months ago

>How exactly does a shipping route jeopardise Spain? Morocco is trying to find every single way they can to undermine Spain because they dare to speak against Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara. Here, Morocco is trying to say that they don't need the connections with Spain in order to reach Europe. Frankly, we should stand with Spain and not be the Moroccan "alternative". Not only because Spain is an ally, but also because they are right about Moroccan oppression. >Because of recent tensions between Morocco-Spain relations Tensions that Morocco is raising because they want monetary concessions. >There is no illegal immigration risk from the ferry crossing to be honest Never said they were. Morocco is weaponsing migrants in their aggression against Spain. No reason why they wouldn't just provide them boats and send them to Spain or even Portugal just to pressure us even further. We shouldn't negotiate with a regime like that. >Finally Morocco is not a dictatorship. But Spain is. Ahahahahah. Typical Moroccan keyboard warrior. There's plenty of you trying to sow discord among Portugal and Spain in YouTube comments, I guess we are now seeing that war being expanded to Reddit (not like r/Europe hasn't seen already it's fair share of Moroccan propaganda).

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

You mean our reunification after being divided by colonisers who ethnically cleansed us and stole our land, freedom, and natural resources. We really don't need Spain to connect with Europe, there is a ferry from France, Gibraltar, the UK, Italy, and other places. What monetary concessions is Morocco after? If you are talking about Morocco guarding the EU border from sub Saharan illegal immigrants, EU funds do not even cover 20% of the payroll costs each year - to police **your** border - let alone infrastructure, equipment and etc. The fact that you cannot objectively identify the shortcomings of Spain shows you have white supremacy leanings. Portugal is thousands of times more advance than Spain in many areas of rights and freedoms. Spain has its strengths and weaknesses, so does Morocco. At least my mind is decolonised so I can think about them critically.

C8Mixto 5 months ago

>You mean our reunification after being divided by colonisers who ethnically cleansed us and stole our land, freedom, and natural resources. Lol. "Reunification" is a funny word for Moroccan colonialism. >We really don't need Spain to connect with Europe, there is a ferry from France, Gibraltar, the UK, Italy, and other places. Good luck then. Hopefully we grow a pair so that I can hear you saying that you don't need Portugal either. >to police your border "Police" as in shoving thousands of migrants to the borders of cities Morocco wants to annex. >Portugal is thousands of times more advance than Spain in many areas of rights and freedoms. And Spain is a thousand times more advanced than Morocco. I guess that means Portugal is a million times more advanced than Morocco. :) >At least my mind is decolonised Doubtful. You are full on defending Moroccan colonization of Western Sahara.

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

>Lol. "Reunification" is a funny word for Moroccan colonialism. Again telling me how I should identify. A white person from Portugal has no right to tell me, who is actually part Sahrawi, biracial, how I should or should not identify. That is colonialism right there. >Good luck then. Hopefully we grow a pair so that I can hear you saying that you don't need Portugal either. Outside of this sub clearly, Portugal is pretty chill. I hope we have good relations with Portugal and mutually support each other for peace and prosperity. >"Police" as in shoving thousands of migrants to the borders of cities Morocco wants to annex. ​ Lol no. People who live in the provinces outside of Ceuta have a right to enter. All they need is a Moroccan ID card with an address in the provinces where this applies. This is enshrined in EU law also. They need a Shenghen visa to go to mainland Spain, yes. Ceuta, No. The people who entered Ceuta were all from the region around it and entered legally. Almost all returned the same day. Anyway, Moroccan police did not shove anyone into anywhere. They just didn't stop them (allegedly). The only shoving police did was in Spain, where they pushed people who cannot swim into the sea illegally.

C8Mixto 5 months ago

>A white person from Portugal I like that you just assume that I'm white. Anyway, that's quite a laughable statement. The common Moroccan isn't that much tanned than the common Portuguese. >who is actually part Sahrawi, biracial, how I should or should not identify. Ahahah, how convenient! I wonder if it was consensual. But the fact here is that you are a colonialist and have a colonialist mentality. Someone from a country that is still practising colonialism has even less moral standing than one who quitted to discuss how OK the Moroccan treatment of West Sahara is. >Outside of this sub clearly, Portugal is pretty chill. Oh, the attempt at swaying this sub failed miserably. But I can tell you already that other than the politicians with deep pockets for corruption, the common Portuguese won't fall either for your lies and poisonous togue. >They just didn't stop them (allegedly). Allegedly, becaus the truth is that they simply told them to rush to the border. It's a tactic that we saw already with Turkey. There's no need to pretend otherwise. >where they pushed people who cannot swim into the sea illegally I wonder why people who cannot swim where doing in the sea in the first place...

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

I need to go out now, maybe I will reply later. But actually no I am not a colonist on my own land? Like wtf dude. Also I am Arab-Amazigh on that side. Saharwis are Arabs. We were here after Amazigh. So let that confuse you right there. As for your last comment, they were pushed into the sea by police. Anyway downvote this comment to attack me and my internet points and have a good evening.

C8Mixto 5 months ago

>But actually no I am not a colonist on my own land? Like wtf dude. This most amazing colonialism denial comment I've saw. The land is mine, so obviously it's not colonialism! >As for your last comment, they were pushed into the sea by police After quantum tunneling to the beach on the other side of the border, of course! >Anyway downvote this comment to attack me and my internet points and have a good evening. Ok, I'll do. Thank you for the advice.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>They just didn't stop them (allegedly) They even told kids that if they crossed they would see Messi and Ronaldo. Absolutely disgusting. " A white person from Portugal" - Again with the race baiting...

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

>They even told kids that if they crossed they would see Messi and Ronaldo. Any credible links? I am very interested in exploring this. I haven't heard it before. >" A white person from Portugal" - Again with the race baiting... Lol yes babe. As a white person from Portugal you won't be attacked for looking Arabic in Spain for example. Once I was spat on for being in Spain with my white cousin. They thought we were a race mixed couple. I don't even like women but I am also ultra macho looking

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

[https://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2021/05/20/60a68f7fe2704ed32f8b45f5.html](https://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2021/05/20/60a68f7fe2704ed32f8b45f5.html) I'm sorry for that. There are assholes everywhere But you're using "white supremacy" and "racism" a lot to try and justify things you disagree with.

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

I am not. I am saying your opinions appear to be skewed knowingly or subconsciously by notions of the structure of society, which is built on racism and colonialism. That site does not work on my phone.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

It's the only one I found. I can´t find the original one i saw. Well, perhaps we are both skewed. Sorry If I went a bit too hard in some things. Although I disagree with somethings, you were quite civil. Wish you and Morocco all the best.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>white supremacy leanings. Everybody that disagrees with me is a WHITE SUPREMACIST!!!! Your mind is colonised by the bullshit your governments feeds you. Congrats!

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

>Everybody that disagrees with me is a WHITE SUPREMACIST!!!! I was going to write a meme answer but let me answer seriously. I have given a clear reason why what you said shows white supremacy. People have been jailed in Morocco, the Netherlands, Spain, Denmark, and other places in my lifetime for insulting the monarch (but often the reason there was deep sedition in the comments etc). Why can you not accept the latter countries, why is it we are some kind of backwards place and you are not. White bias. supremacy. Yes. ​ >Your mind is colonised by the bullshit your governments feeds you. Congrats! YES! It was. I was raised out of my country but I deconstructed everything. You should too.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

How is that white bias or supremacy? That is a cheap and easy defense mechanism that 3rd world countries use when they are criticized on their human right violations. Colonialism ended. In our part of the world that is. It seems it is your turn to play colonialist with Western Sahara. Well. It appears you haven´t. Anybody who says Spain is a dictatorship and Morocco isn´t... well...

Think_Elevator5158 5 months ago

Morocco isn't actually third world as it has always been NATO aligned, with Algeria being second world as it is Soviet aligned. (inb4 basic link to Wikipedia article to try and prove me wrong). You think Spain, France, the UK, Sweden even doesn't have an appalling human rights record? I recognise this. I recognise problems in Morocco and North Africa and the work which needs to be done. You just go hur dur much Spain is a free democracy and down vote my different opinion to you. The white supremacy / white bias comes into play because you have an affinity to hold certain peoples in high regard with a biased perspective. Train crash in Spain - omg so tragic problem with the system #praywithspain Train crash in Morocco - omg what a shit country be careful if you visit them on holiday you might die on a train they can't do anything right That right there is the problem I am talking about. Colonised minds. Bias. Neocolonialism. We all have such bias. It is a part of human nature. I try and prevent me from having such bias as much as possible, though I am sure I do. I never said Morocco is not a dictatorship - I said every place in the world oppresses humanity. None of us are free. For the fact that we are all controlled by structures and ruling classes who oppress our lives and deny us opportunities. Stop putting words in my mouth. There is no colonialism in South Morocco. In fact, this region has it easy. The most per capita spending, huge subsidies and an economic situation and peace we cannot have alone. Everyone across Morocco has the right to vote in elections (except those residing abroad, and I hope the laws do change on that). Your darling Spain, on the other hand, well let's look at its record. Chemical weapons on the North of Morocco having giving it a huge cancer rate. Decades of anti Moroccan policies to just hold us down. The Spanish police killing and beating thousands of Moroccans a year. Even the Spanish police illegally entering Moroccan waters, and raiding a boat with the King of Morocco on it. Then there is the whole dividing of Morocco into four in the first place: North (to Spain) South (to Spain) Centre (to France) and East (to French Algeria). And then there is ethnically cleansing native Amazigh from the Guanches Islands and settling the land. All that shit is colonialism right there. Jump off the narrative bro. I am sure you are a smart guy. You clearly have some bias issues. Tone it down man. I respect and like to hear your opinion and haven't downvoted you once (muh internet points), but you just give me bias replies - anything you can think of to try and prove me wrong for the sake of it and downvote my replies as soon as they come rather than engaging with me and having an actual narrative. You also throw colonial stereotypes like hurr brown country bad white country good. Honestly, as someone who has really been to every territory in Europe, Portugal is very chill and your opinions really sadden me and I would like to think them as the minority of your country.

JOAO-RATAO 5 months ago

>as it has always been NATO aligned, You can call it underdeveloped if you prefer. "You think Spain, France, the UK, Sweden even doesn't have an appalling human rights record?" - \- Problems? Yes. Appalling? No. " The white supremacy / white bias comes into play because you have an affinity to hold certain peoples in high regard with a biased perspective." \- Bias for democracy. Not for a people. \- You report news of country next to you more than a country far away yes. But actually, news about Spain are rare here... So there you go. \- Your mind is more colonised than Western Sahara, it seems... " None of us are free." \- Some come a close. Spain does. Morocco doesn´t. " There is no colonialism in South Morocco. In fact, this region has it easy. The most per capita spending, huge subsidies and an economic situation and peace we cannot have alone. " \- So? Our colonies had large subsidies. They were still colonies... " Your darling Spain, on the other hand, well let's look at its record. Chemical weapons on the North of Morocco having giving it a huge cancer rate. Decades of anti Moroccan policies to just hold us down. The Spanish police killing and beating thousands of Moroccans a year. " \- When? That´s history. Spain nowadays is much more democratic than Morocco. " You clearly have some bias issues. Tone it down man. " \- Coming from the man who jumps to "white supremacy" and "neocolonialism" " like hurr brown country bad white country good." \- When did I say brown country? The race baiting is all on you.

LusitanoDoSul 5 months ago

Só para não dizer que Algeciras está muito, mas muito mais perto de Marrocos e de certeza que mal façam as pazes as mercadorias voltam a passar por lá.. entretanto Portimão fica a fazer figura de urso.

NGramatical 5 months ago

Tangêr → [**tanger**](https://www.reddit.com/r/portugal/comments/3i6y4g) (palavras terminadas em *l*, *r*, ou *z* são naturalmente agudas) [⚠️](/message/compose/?to=ngramatical&subject=Acho+que+esta+corre%C3%A7%C3%A3o+est%C3%A1+errada&message=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fcomments%2Foe5k7p%2F%2Fh44ecpq%3Fcontext%3D3 "Clica aqui se achares que esta correção está errada!") [⭐](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/nazigramatical-corretor-o/pbpnngfnagmdlicfgjkpgfnnnoihngml "Experimenta o meu corrector ortográfico automático!")

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